NL200 - KK flop check/raise

ActionStan · #1 10-28-2007, 08:20 AM

Bodog No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

UTG ($193.00)
UTG+1 ($646.90)
MP1 ($228.90)
MP2 ($122.50)
CO ($172.50)
Button ($205.00)
SB ($187.00)
BB (Hero) ($xxx.xx)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $8, 5 folds, BB (Hero) raises to $25, UTG+1 calls $17.

Flop: ($51) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $50, UTG+1 bets $621.9 (All-In).

Looking at this situation generally, overpair on a drawy board in a 3 bet pt, when are you starting to think about a fold? My OOP 3-bet range is fairly wide but not insane. Lots of pairs and bigger A's. This villain has almost certainly seen me 3-bet from the blinds before this point. This particular villain is reasonably aggressive, but not overly so. The villain is going to show up with 88 or TT a fair bit. He is also going to show up with the occasional AcXc and other assorted draws. He is going to show up with AQ too much for his own good. There will be fewer times that he shows up with weaker top pair hands. Not a big part of his range, but we're all seen it. He puts us on a wiffed AK and shows up with JJ, that sort of thing.

By the time all the money goes in, calling off another $150 is giving me 2 to 1. I'm pretty comfortable with that. Too loose? Too tight?

mce86 · #2 10-28-2007, 09:34 AM

Without reads, I dont know if im calling. He raised in ep, called your 3 bet, and now pushes. At leat TT-AA, and you only beat JJ....why is your stack xxxd out? That makes a difference.

ActionStan · #3 10-28-2007, 01:06 PM

That's the essence of the question. I'm really just noodling around a general situation. The outcome of this particular hand isn't all that important.

If you have 10 left behind, you're calling. No ifs ands or buts. If you have 700 left, you're folding. No ifs ands or buts. Somewhere in between you start folding. For example, if you have 100BB in a 3 bet pot, you're just getting all-in most of the time I would think. It's 125 to call into a 400 total pot. I have a hard time believing my hand has less than 30% equity against the villains range.

I also disagree a bit that he's on TT+, but maybe you can convince me otherwise. Here's my thinking. He had position. I'm 3 betting OOP, which is going to widen my range a bit because I don't really want to see a flop oop with a lot of hands. I'm almost always going to c-bet even if I whiff with AK. He's getting pretty good implied odds for a fair number of hands. He's also just going to show up with AQs and AKs a non-zero amount of the time. I've seen this, I know this. I played the same sort of hand not too long ago where the guy showed up with AJs on a J high flop. People make mistakes and call with hands like these. Also, a non-zero amount of the time, he will be bluffing. So, on a board like this he's going to show up with some drawing hands.

bmanning · #4 10-28-2007, 01:48 PM

I had just sat down at this table and know villain pretty well. I don't think he shows up with one pair hands here that often and almost never with jj. He can and will show up with aj cc and ak cc. If i remember right you instacalled his push?

ActionStan · #5 10-28-2007, 02:12 PM

...shameful admission...
I did. I wasn't paying enough attention and I had the stacks I was playing at different tables swapped in my mind. I had in my mind I was playing 180 (easy call at 110) not the 260 (generally a fold at 180 or so) I actually had on that table. Sigh. Not my proudest moment.
...end shameful admission...

It got me to thinking about the problem in general. Seems to be the cutoff is somewhere around 100BB total stacks depending on the player. That fellow wasn't one to get out of line too much I don't think. So maybe I'm putting a few too many hands in his range. I don't know. I've been getting killed lately when I've gotten all in against weaker hands that have been drawing out. I'm pretty sure I've been overplaying a few hands out of frustration because of that. I still think he can show up with A(KQJ)cc and sometimes AQ. Thoughts?

PLAYOFFS · #6 10-28-2007, 08:28 PM

It totally depends on how deep you are. If you only have 120 behind you I think you call. If you are deep I'd say fold. I think there could be a little donk on donk violence going on in this hand.