Not convinced KK all-in preflop up to 100BB is good idea (at $0.50NL)

[Paxinor]

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90% of the time its +EV to call KK or shove it. you will have enough FEQ if you shove and have good enough pot odds to call after you've 4bet for 30BB and this covers most of the situation a NL50 player with 50k hands livetime played will encounter


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Wait, why do we want fold equity with kings? The only hand we want to fold isn't folding.

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not if we need to protect against hands with 30% equity and for playability reasons. and if he is folding everything exept aces. we do have higher foldingequity if we have KK and he only calls AA,KK... same applies to AK, they are the best pushing hands against an only AA,KK caller because of cardremoval, so you do actually push to fold out better hands with the AA,KK,AK range...

@ phzon: your arguments might be correct but they are highly theoretical and have no real relevance in low stakes poker. i cannot believe that you take the high stakes TV game with its structure as an example to fold KK and imply to take that as a lesson for NL50/NL25 this is a joke.

in NL50 you will be up against pretty unknown players with a 100 BB. you will almost never come across a situation where it is correct to fold KK preflop. Because you simply don't have the information needed to do it.

first of all in almost every case you 4bet and therefore have to call against most players because of the dead money.

you most likely have to push KK because you can get calls from worse hand or will have enough foldequity after a 4bet of an opponent because of cardremoval and the point that he only will be calling with aces, but will regularly 4bet weaker hands. if he does not fourbet weaker hands than KK+, you will not have problems anyway because it implies that he is calling 3bets with AK or QQ and is not ready to go all the way with it and you will be able to exploit that greatly.

so basicly it kind of comes down to a gametheoretic more optimal way to play.

the point of it is, that folding to an all in even though you just threebet is a highly adaptive play which can be exploitet VERY VERY easily and will be exploitet in higher stakes. so you need very good information about your opponent that justifies your play. if he is an unknown you almost always cannot fold it because even his pushrange into a 3bet should be at least AA,AK or else he will be exploitable in other situations...

thats the intuition behind behind never fold KK. all those people opening these threads have selective memory and ask the same question and would most likely fold it way to often if you tell them something that "smart people" sometimes fold it and bla...

there is no evidence that NL50 players are overall so bad, that it actually makes it correct to fold KK after a 4betpush from an opponent. its just so unreasonable to push only aces there. what do you do with AK? or QQ? just call? then you will get raped. do you really want to just push it AA an "slowplay" everything else? even though you know that most people are calling very very thight.

its just SO unlikely and i think there is never a situation where you can fold KK after you did 4bet. its only possible if you get pushed after you 3bet at least mathematicly, but that really doesnt make it possible practicly because 4betpushes tend to be at least AA,AK