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#631
10-26-2007, 01:21 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] And now you know the reason for releasing the Seif transcript. It is prima facie "proof" that Absolute cannot offer settlements to any harmed party beyond what is retrievable in the 30 gig database of hand histories. It is a slick way of containing their potential damages beyond what may have transpired over the past two months or so. [/ QUOTE ] Um, it might help if it were admissible evidence of anything to begin with. In case you slept through evidence class in law school, under the Federal Rules of Evidence "Hearsay" is a statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted. A random IM conversation like this between interested parties doesn't exactly fall under any exception to the rule. How is it even possibly admissible by Seif or Absolute as evidence that what they are saying is true? [/ QUOTE ]just to all the people going back and forth on finer points of the legalities of the situation.. its all irrelevant because usa laws dont apply in this case. costa rica/an indian native sovereign nation. people getting money back in this situation seems great to me epsecially for the like of ikestoys (40k). it all comes down to do we trust them when all has been cleared up? if we dont then they will lose enuff revenue by out action collectivley as a poker community. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] im pretty sure whomever, especially the Americans involved in this case can be tried in a United States court if they wanted to. Im not positive, but I think it is misguided to declare it can not. The US federal court system jurisdiction is very loosely defined and their is history of making normal state crimes federal by taking advantage of certain opportunities (using a cell phone, having a bank account from a non local bank, and so on). This is done very frequently when the federal government wants to charge someone in a RICO case. I would think they could do the same thing on a global level if they felt so inclined [/ QUOTE ] You sue in US court and win. How do you collect the money? 
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#633
10-26-2007, 01:24 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
[ QUOTE ]
Imagine this hypothetical scenario: [1] I relocate to, and incorporate a business in Belize. [2] The investors in my corporation are my Aunts, Uncles, Brothers, Sisters, Cousins, Friends, etc. and are all based in the U.S. [3] I use my corporation to successfully swindle American citizens out of millions of dollars. [4] The entirety of the proceeds from my scam are redistributed as dividends to my shareholders. I'm island hopping in the Caymans into perpetuity, my relatives and friends are filthy rich in the U.S. Is everyone "safe"? If so, is this not the perfect business model assuming one cares little about ethical considerations? [/ QUOTE ] Swindling is a crime both in the US and in caribbiean nations, so the US can ask them to extradite you to the US for trial and they will turn you over.
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#634
10-26-2007, 01:31 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
[ QUOTE ]
I could be missing something, but if you click on permit holders tab on KGC site they don't list AP as a permit holder. [/ QUOTE ] They took their names down about a week ago. We have cached screenshots in the old AP threads.
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#635
10-26-2007, 01:42 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Unfortunately for AP, the Kahnawake Gaming Commission's Regulations Concerning Interactive Gaming require "Authorized Client Providers" to keep a gaming record for "five years after the end of the transaction to which the record relates". [/ QUOTE ] Haha, that is great detective work! Awesome! I forgive you for 50% of the lifetilt you put me on with your previous posts. -pyg [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, props to you despite your rather gay start. Actually the Kahnawake Gaming Commissions regulations are a mine of interesting information: http://www.kahnawake.com/gamingcommissio...ve%20Gaming.pdf If it is true that AP do not keep HH's for more than two months (has anyone actually asked AP for a statement?) that alone would seem to be grounds for revocation of AP's operating licence. Quite apart from the need to maintain records, Part XIV of the regulations say that the Commission may revoke or suspend a licence if "the Licence Holder no longer has a good business reputation". Unfortunately the question is one to be determined by the Commission in its sole discretion, no appeal or public accountability that I can see. In fact, all accountability and appeals to anyone, anywhere, are excluded by para 363. Does anyone here know anything about the Kahnawake legal system? Do they have the concept of judicial review there? Can the Commission just exclude all accountability like that? I would like to see AP shut down, but it would be a complete waste of time lobbying the Commission for AP's licence to be revoked unless the Commission itself is reviewable. [/ QUOTE ] The KGC can ban AP if it wants to. But would it want to? Imigine that you are on the Commission. What would your considerations be? First, you would consider what is best for your nation - right? And the nation there makes some money from AP paying annual permit fees and from renting servers. But AP is only one of a thousand doing that. So that is not a major consideration. Second, you have to be concerned about Canada using this as an excuse to invade and shut down the gambling business. That would be a disaster - many in the tribe work in this business of server services, so you have to worry about giving the damned Canadians some excuse for shutting you down. Right now, many Canadian voters probably support native enterprises, so Canada is reluctant to invade. But if the Canadians can say - well, it's crooked over there, we gotta move in and shut it down - that would be the end of the world. So from that point of view it's critical to punish AP very harshly. Indeed, from that point of view AP should be banished. A final consideration is that AP is owned by the former Grand Chief of the Nation, Mr Norton. I would not be surprised if the commission members not only like Mr Norton but almost worship him. His success has been extremely wonderful for the tribe - I think I read that their unemployment rate is only two percent. At many US reservations I bet that number is 80 percent. And Mr Norton probably deserves a lot of credit for that. So they wouldn't want to screw Mr Norton if they could help it. Plus they probably view Norton as the biggest victim of this mess - why hurt the biggest victim even more? So if I were a commissioner I think I would go for a very very big fine, and really rock solid arrangements designed to make future cheating very unlikely. But if they were really worried about the damned Canadians using this as an excuse to shut them down, then maybe they could ban AP and have Mr Norton run the servers somewhere else. Even though that would be costly to Mr Norton.
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#636
10-26-2007, 01:45 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
[ QUOTE ]
You sue in US court and win. How do you collect the money? [/ QUOTE ] You either intercept money as it transits through the US using a variety of judgment enforcement mechanisms, or you attempt to domesticate your judgment in the foreign country/countries where the judgment debtor holds assets. It isn't impossible, but it isn't cheap either.
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#637
10-26-2007, 01:48 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Imagine this hypothetical scenario: [1] I relocate to, and incorporate a business in Belize. [2] The investors in my corporation are my Aunts, Uncles, Brothers, Sisters, Cousins, Friends, etc. and are all based in the U.S. [3] I use my corporation to successfully swindle American citizens out of millions of dollars. [4] The entirety of the proceeds from my scam are redistributed as dividends to my shareholders. I'm island hopping in the Caymans into perpetuity, my relatives and friends are filthy rich in the U.S. Is everyone "safe"? If so, is this not the perfect business model assuming one cares little about ethical considerations? [/ QUOTE ] Swindling is a crime both in the US and in caribbiean nations, so the US can ask them to extradite you to the US for trial and they will turn you over. [/ QUOTE ] You are mixing up civil and criminal issues
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#638
10-26-2007, 01:56 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
[ QUOTE ]
I could be missing something, but if you click on permit holders tab on KGC site they don't list AP as a permit holder. [/ QUOTE ] I noticed that too, and speculated that maybe after a change of ownership - such as to Mr Norton - you have to reapply, and in the period of reapplying you are permitted to continue gambling operations but do not have a permit. The application seems to be a bitch, and processing it would have to take quite a while. Or alternatively, the structure now has Ultimate Bet as the sole firm running both ap and ub - it's still listed.
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#639
10-26-2007, 01:58 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Imagine this hypothetical scenario: [1] I relocate to, and incorporate a business in Belize. [2] The investors in my corporation are my Aunts, Uncles, Brothers, Sisters, Cousins, Friends, etc. and are all based in the U.S. [3] I use my corporation to successfully swindle American citizens out of millions of dollars. [4] The entirety of the proceeds from my scam are redistributed as dividends to my shareholders. I'm island hopping in the Caymans into perpetuity, my relatives and friends are filthy rich in the U.S. Is everyone "safe"? If so, is this not the perfect business model assuming one cares little about ethical considerations? [/ QUOTE ] Swindling is a crime both in the US and in caribbiean nations, so the US can ask them to extradite you to the US for trial and they will turn you over. [/ QUOTE ] You are mixing up civil and criminal issues [/ QUOTE ] Nope. Swindling is criminal, in both places, so the US could grab the swindler from the Caribbean. I did not say that the moms and pops and cousins can't keep the dividends. I assume they can. A scheme which lets you get profits to your relatives - but you still end up in jail - is not really a good scheme.
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#640
10-26-2007, 02:15 PM
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Re: Just got paid.
[ QUOTE ]
Nat- On a different Mark Seif-related issue, I recall early in your analysis of the infamous Potripper tournament HH file you discovered that account #363 had observed Mark Seif's table for a short period of time. But in reading all of these threads I never saw any description of the HHs for the hands that #363 observed. Was there anything out of the ordinary about them? Did Seif win any of them in unusual fashion or did he make any extraordinary laydowns? Was there any chat between Seif and observer #363? [/ QUOTE ] I'm not Nat, but #363 never observed Seif's table. A different account with the same IP address as #363 observed Seif's table.
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