Not convinced KK all-in preflop up to 100BB is good idea (at $0.50NL) - Page 2

PJo336 · #11 10-26-2007, 12:17 PM

People have much wider ranges than you would really think to go all in preflop. Here are my most recent all ins preflop with KK, They are from 50nl and 25nl

------------------
HAND #1
------------------

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN): $71.45
SB: $51.85
BB: $25.75
UTG: $36.95
MP: $28.25
CO: $61.10

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG raises to $1.75, 2 folds, Hero raises to $6, SB raises to $51.85 and is All-In, 2 folds, Hero calls $45.85

Flop: ($105.95) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($105.95) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($105.95) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $105.95 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Kings) and WON $102.95 (+$51.10 NET)
SB showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Queens) and LOST (-$51.85 NET)

------------------
HAND #2
------------------

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): $31.40
BB: $38.40
UTG: $49.85
CO: $18.80
BTN: $105

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
3 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, BB raises to $5, Hero raises to $31.40 and is All-In, BB calls $26.40

Flop: ($62.80) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($62.80) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($62.80) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $62.80 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a full house, Kings full of Nines) and WON $59.80 (+$28.40 NET)
BB showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (two pair, Queens and Nines) and LOST (-$31.40 NET)

------------------
HAND #3
------------------

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN): $45.50
SB: $52.10
BB: $49.60
UTG: $22.15
MP: $25.70
CO: $175.90

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, MP raises to $2, CO folds, Hero raises to $6.75, 2 folds, MP raises to $11.50, Hero raises to $45.50 and is All-In, MP calls $14.20 and is All-In

Flop: ($52.15) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($52.15) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($52.15) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $52.15 Pot ($2.60 Rake)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Kings) and WON $49.55 (+$23.85 NET)
MP showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Queens) and LOST (-$25.70 NET)

------------------
HAND #4
------------------

Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: $23.20
BTN: $22.90
Hero (SB): $26.90
BB: $25
UTG: $3.50
MP: $14.90

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, MP raises to $1, 2 folds, Hero raises to $26.90 and is All-In, BB calls $24.75 and is All-In, MP folds

Flop: ($51) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($51) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($51) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $51 Pot ($2.55 Rake)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a pair of Kings) and WON $48.45 (+$23.45 NET)
BB showed J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Jacks) and LOST (-$25 NET)

------------------
HAND #5
------------------

Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (BB): $23.30
UTG: $18.65
BTN: $42.10
SB: $22.75

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG folds, BTN raises to $1, SB calls $0.90, Hero raises to $23.30 and is All-In, BTN raises to $42.10 and is All-In, SB folds

Flop: ($47.60) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($47.60) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($47.60) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $47.60 Pot ($2 Rake)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Kings) and WON $45.60 (+$22.30 NET)
BTN showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a pair of Queens) and LOST (-$23.30 NET)

------------------
HAND #6
------------------

Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 2 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

SB: $36.45
Hero (BB): $57.55

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
SB raises to $3, Hero raises to $57.55 and is All-In, SB calls $33.45 and is All-In

Flop: ($72.90) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($72.90) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($72.90) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $72.90 Pot ($0.50 Rake)
SB showed 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Eights) and WON $72.40 (+$35.95 NET)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a pair of Kings) and LOST (-$36.45 NET)

------------------
HAND #7
------------------

Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: $28.45
BTN: $46
SB: $18.40
Hero (BB): $28
UTG: $28.90

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
2 folds, BTN raises to $0.85, SB folds, Hero raises to $4, BTN raises to $9, Hero raises to $28 and is All-In, BTN calls $19

Flop: ($56.10) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($56.10) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($56.10) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $56.10 Pot ($2.80 Rake)
BTN showed A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (two pair, Aces and Queens) and WON $53.30 (+$25.30 NET)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (two pair, Kings and Queens) and LOST (-$28 NET)

------------------
HAND #8
------------------

Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (CO): $24.70
BTN: $8.25
SB: $31.35
BB: $25.25
UTG: $57.60
MP: $8.25

MP posts $0.25
Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG calls $0.25, MP checks, Hero raises to $1.35, BTN raises to $8.25 and is All-In, 2 folds, UTG calls $8, MP folds, Hero raises to $24.70 and is All-In, UTG calls $16.45

Flop: ($58.25) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($58.25) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($58.25) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $58.25 Pot ($2.90 Rake)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a pair of Kings) and LOST (-$24.70 NET)
BTN showed J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (a flush, Ace high) and WON $24.10 (+$15.85 NET)
UTG showed 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a flush, Ace high) and WON $31.25 (+$6.55 NET)

I ran into AA in one of those, and one was heads up so that can basically be ignored, but the point here is that ranges for all ins are not neccessarily as small as most people believe and that is why people believe KK is profitable to get all in. If you are not getting called by worse hands than KK or QQ, you need to loosen up a bit.

Obviously some of these arent the best examples but i think it gets the point across that people are looser than you believe

pzhon · #12 10-26-2007, 12:46 PM

It is good to look at actual hands.

It's not good to confuse hands in which someone called all-in, often getting decent pot odds, with hands where someone pushed all-in. When you push all-in with KK, you are not being put to the test, your opponent is. It is news to no one that players make a lot of bad calls.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2: Hero raises to $31.40 and is All-In
Hand 3: Hero raises to $45.50 and is All-In
Hand 4: Hero raises to $26.90 and is All-In
Hand 5: Hero raises to $23.30 and is All-In
Hand 6: Hero raises to $57.55 and is All-In
Hand 7: Hero raises to $28 and is All-In
Hand 8: Hero raises to $24.70 and is All-In

[/ QUOTE ]
Only hand 1 involved calling all-in with KK.

I don't know why this is such a common mistake in threads like this. Hands where you push with KK are not evidence that other people are pushing with worse than KK.

As I stated before, you should be able to find examples where people push with less than KK at NL $25. However, you won't find as much at NL $100 compared with the times someone pushes with AA.

The OP's data may be biased due to protection pushes. +EV pushes to protect your hand may be behind on average when you get called. The pots won would not show up in the statistics.

PJo336 · #13 10-26-2007, 12:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Only hand 1 involved calling all-in with KK.

I don't know why this is such a common mistake in threads like this. Hands where you push with KK are not evidence that other people are pushing with worse than KK.

As I stated before, you should be able to find examples where people push with less than KK at NL $25. However, you won't find as much at NL $100 compared with the times someone pushes with AA.

The OP's data may be biased due to protection pushes. +EV pushes to protect your hand may be behind on average when you get called. The pots won would not show up in the statistics.

[/ QUOTE ]

ehh i wasnt paying close enuff attention but hand 1 should be sufficient.

Saying people dont push with less at 100nl is ridiculous. 100nl is more about image at the table. If someone is only pushing AA against you its cuz u are a nit. If you are not seeing people push JJ-AA, AK into you, your image is that of a tight old grandma, especially this is the case at 100nl and above.

pzhon · #14 10-26-2007, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Only hand 1 involved calling all-in with KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

ehh i wasnt paying close enuff attention but hand 1 should be sufficient.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why did you bother posting 8 hands, if you thought 1 hand was enough evidence? No, a single hand where someone pushed with QQ is not close to enough evidence. Please pay more attention.

[ QUOTE ]
Saying people dont push with less at 100nl is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]
No one said that they never do. The question is whether they do it enough to make calling with KK +EV. As has been discussed many times, you don't need to be 90% convinced that someone has AA to make it right to fold KK. Since you are less of a favorite over plausible worse hands (particularly Ax) than you are an underdog against AA, even a 50% chance that you are up against AA can make it right to fold against an overbet.

[ QUOTE ]
If you are not seeing people push JJ-AA, AK into you, your image is that of a tight old grandma, especially this is the case at 100nl and above.

[/ QUOTE ]
Was that intended to disparage my play?

First, while some people value their table image over money, I don't. I don't care if my table image is fashionable.

Second, that my UTG raises get called so frequently, and win so much money for me, indicates that if players view me as tight, they usually don't act on it properly. In fact, I raise so much from late position that I think players assume my early position raising range is much wider than it is.

GittyUP · #15 10-26-2007, 01:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No one said that they never do. The question is whether they do it enough to make calling with KK +EV. As has been discussed many times, you don't need to be 90% convinced that someone has AA to make it right to fold KK. Since you are less of a favorite over plausible worse hands (particularly Ax) than you are an underdog against AA, even a 50% chance that you are up against AA can make it right to fold against an overbet

[/ QUOTE ]

This cannot be overstated.

br.bm · #16 10-26-2007, 02:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If you are not seeing people push JJ-AA, AK into you, your image is that of a tight old grandma, especially this is the case at 100nl and above.

[/ QUOTE ]
I run like 25/20/5 or 30/25/5 at NL100 and NL200 and no one ever 4bet me w/ less than KK.

here is an example how to calculate "Call with KK?"

PJo336 · #17 10-26-2007, 02:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Only hand 1 involved calling all-in with KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

ehh i wasnt paying close enuff attention but hand 1 should be sufficient.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why did you bother posting 8 hands, if you thought 1 hand was enough evidence? No, a single hand where someone pushed with QQ is not close to enough evidence. Please pay more attention.

[/ QUOTE ]
easy bud, i was waiting on money exchange and as i said just picked the most recent KKs. Obvi greater sample size is greater proof of anything. How about Winning overall with KK AIPF? Is that sufficient evidence? I can find you 100 players winning overall with KK aipf.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Saying people dont push with less at 100nl is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]
No one said that they never do. The question is whether they do it enough to make calling with KK +EV. As has been discussed many times, you don't need to be 90% convinced that someone has AA to make it right to fold KK. Since you are less of a favorite over plausible worse hands (particularly Ax) than you are an underdog against AA, even a 50% chance that you are up against AA can make it right to fold against an overbet.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree completely, The fact that you are a fav, whether slight or not, over Ax or other hands gives your KK more equity against a villians range. Knowing someone could have a lone A should not sway you more towards folding but in fact the other way.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are not seeing people push JJ-AA, AK into you, your image is that of a tight old grandma, especially this is the case at 100nl and above.

[/ QUOTE ]
Was that intended to disparage my play?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not at all. Lighten up a bit. It was intended to point out the importance of table image vs the actual cards in play. KK will be more profitable if you have developed a way to get people to not believe you always have KK or AA. this is obvi, but needed to be said.

[ QUOTE ]
First, while some people value their table image over money, I don't. I don't care if my table image is fashionable.

Second, that my UTG raises get called so frequently, and win so much money for me, indicates that if players view me as tight, they usually don't act on it properly. In fact, I raise so much from late position that I think players assume my early position raising range is much wider than it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

this entire quote shows that you do in fact value table image, which is good, as its very important

bknollenberg · #18 10-26-2007, 02:50 PM

jesus, someone post the [censored] KK picture and close this shiz down.

RustyBrooks · #19 10-26-2007, 02:52 PM

Picture shows fine for me.

PJo336 · #20 10-26-2007, 02:53 PM