A very interesting ethics situation and a Bellagio Floor ruling - Page 4

AngusThermopyle · #31 10-22-2007, 04:00 PM

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So what we're saying here is that we're going to allow this angle

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Where is the angle?

$460 pot.
Player 1 grabs $400 and is cutting the chips off in the betting area.
On the third $100 stack.
Player 2 says "I call"

What is Player 2 trying to do?

slik · #32 10-22-2007, 04:13 PM

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]player 1

PokherJoe · #33 10-22-2007, 04:14 PM

The other day I was dealing a hand (1-3 NL) and a guy bet out of turn, the guy who was skipped asked how much the bettor had, then checked, they guy who origionally bet then wanted to check, I called the floor knowing what the floor would say, of course the bet still stands.

The rules are not made for kharmic reasons or to try to screw people out of money. They are made to make the game as fair as possible, are they all as fair as fair as they could be, maybe not.

But with any game, I dont care if its bowling or basketball, there are rules to the games that apply to all who play. Pay attention to the rules, and to the game in general. Its your fault if you didnt know that saying "call" out of turn means that you have to call what the other player bets.

Dont hate the player hate the game. And if you think a rule is unfair, try to petition to get it changed.

Jack Bando · #34 10-22-2007, 04:23 PM

Short answer

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I'm with bav on this one.

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Long answer

OP's biased the forum with hand one.

P2 in hand one is trying to cheat and failing miserably

P2 should have to call at max what P1 is fiddling with (If P1 has $1200 in front of him and $800 in stacks back with hs chips, only $1200) but I can see a pot sized bet being payed as a decent answer and last bet made on flop/turn a good alt.

And Mr. Rick, thanks for making me look up petard.

Jack Bando · #35 10-22-2007, 04:28 PM

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The other day I was dealing a hand (1-3 NL) and a guy bet out of turn, the guy who was skipped asked how much the bettor had, then checked, they guy who origionally bet then wanted to check, I called the floor knowing what the floor would say, of course the bet still stands.

Its your fault if you didnt know that saying "call" out of turn means that you have to call what the other player bets.

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In that hand you describe, no action has taken place to alter the bet, so it stands (If someone bet $20, does the out of turn guy who bet $10 still bet $10? No.)

So, according to how you view the rules, if two guys are playing a game with no cap (let's say 2/5 NL) and the pot's $50. Guy B says "call" OOT by accident, can Guy A now say "I'm all-in for $10000"?

AngusThermopyle · #36 10-22-2007, 04:31 PM

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And if you think a rule is unfair, try to petition to get it changed.

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In this case, the rule is ok, but the Floor's interpretation of it borders on criminal.

BaldEaglePkr · #37 10-22-2007, 04:34 PM

If I got called over as the floor on this, I would have to rule that P2 was obligated to call whatever P1 had in his hand, and could now fold or call the remaining 1600.

My reasoning behind this is the same as I use in most out of turn actions. "What assumptions would an honest player making an honest mistake have made here". In this case, an honest player could have assumed all the money in his hand was being bet, as such that is what he intended to call. Therefore he is obliged to call that. It is not however the amount of the bet, and he should not be on the hook for the whole 2K.

Now, in some cases there are some obvious past histories. If P2 has a history of angle shooting, and has been warned. Then absolutely he did it on purpose, and was trying to get a benefit. Rule him all-in for the 2K.

As a floor you have to be impartial to the history of the table. A ruling has to be the same whether you like someone or not. If an honest player had said call out of turn, you wouldn't make him put in 2K. The only reason it was ruled he had to put in 2K is that you don't like the guy and the floor is getting toked from P1. Or potentially there is history of P2 being a scumbag and the ruling was made for that reason.

In a straight up honest situation tho, I never rule P2 is obligated for 2K.

RR · #38 10-22-2007, 04:36 PM

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But with any game, I dont care if its bowling or basketball, there are rules to the games that apply to all who play. Pay attention to the rules, and to the game in general.

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Well one rule is that the same action taken by different players can have different meaning and another rule is that the floor should rule in the interest of fairness even if this means doing something other than a literal interpretation of the rules. I have seen many people wave around rules, but they tend to be unaware of these rules.

AngusThermopyle · #39 10-22-2007, 04:39 PM

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Now, in some cases there are some obvious past histories. If P2 has a history of angle shooting, and has been warned. Then absolutely he did it on purpose, and was trying to get a benefit. Rule him all-in for the 2K.

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Again.
What is the angle?

dankhank · #40 10-22-2007, 04:39 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
So what we're saying here is that we're going to allow this angle

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Where is the angle?

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the angle would be if someone intends to bet $800 but only grabs $400 in chips, and as they are cutting, they realize they don't have enough, and announce verbally "800". it's maybe an angleshoot if the opponent doesn't let them get to the verbal declaration, by saying "call" pre-emptively.

i think you go by whatever is in the rulebook on this one. but of course casinos are such great places, there is no universal rulebook, just a sheet of poker room guidelines that half the floor probably hasn't read in years.

i don't mind allowing this "angle" because the bettor can prevent it by grabbing the correct amount of chips.