Is this allowed in "real" casinos - Page 2

TacitMike · #11 10-22-2007, 09:38 AM

The most common situation in which people chop pots at a "real" casino is when preflop action folds around to the small blind and he happens to be friendly with the big blind, and they just reclaim their blinds so the table can move on to a new hand. I wouldn't be comfortable in your situation.

PokerintheI · #12 10-22-2007, 10:38 AM

I've never seen that allowed in a casino. Verbally discussing such an agreement "is" collusion. Although I see players attempt it all the time. In unregulated games I know it is a bit more common, and since they make their own rules, not much to do about it.

I would not immediately leave a juicy table due to this, but I would keep an eye out. If it looks like two raise-monkeys are going to continue doing this on a frequent basis, I would rack up an leave, but otherwise I would just chalk it up as a cost of playing a good game. (sort of like tolerating the drunk or smelly or obnoxiously talkative guy)

PantsOnFire · #13 10-22-2007, 11:22 AM

Even without the chop, this play is suspicious on it's own merits. BB cold-called a re-raise and then lays out a donk bet to lead.

You would need AA here to continue in this hand or maybe TT.

Did they show their cards?

davidlong14 · #14 10-22-2007, 12:22 PM

pretty clearly collusion...this sort of "chop" not allowed in real casinos...sounds like you were lucky to not get high-jacked in the parking lot of this place...hope you never went back...

PokherJoe · #15 10-22-2007, 01:10 PM

I am a Poker Dealer and I wander into a very big game from time to time. Both where I work and play are casino cardrooms

In the room where I deal, there are no prop bets whatsoever, so this kind of thing would not be allowed in any form.

However in the room where I play there is a 25-50 PLH/PLO game where many things are allowed. Altho they dont allow a full chop, they do allow a couple things out of the norm.

"Saving"- This is the closest thing to a chop that is allowed. It usually happens when two players get all in on the flop or turn. Usually, if both players agree, the last bet made is pulled back and the rest of the cards are dealt. And then the winner is awarded the pot. I have seen this happen when a third player has been forced out of the pot, and I personally dont like it. Even if it is not malicious in nature, how would u know if it were?

"Insurance"- this happens when 2 people are all in with cards to come and the pot is split according to the odds of winnind the hand. Example, if you are a 2 to 1 dog when the deal is made, you would get 1/3 the pot. Personally I dont mind this form of chopping, but it could still be used to force out an "outside player" if two players are just wantng to chop up another players money.

"Running it Twice"- Most people know what this is but I thought I would mention it. Basically it happens when 2 players get all in whether it is preflop, on flop, or turn. Before the flop there are two ways it is done, 5 and 5 or 3, 2 and 2. 5 and 5 is where there basically 2 5 card boards complete with the burns on flop, turn, and river. If its 3, 2 and 2, there is one flop, a turn and a river, with burns, and another turn and river with burns. You have to win both boards to win the pot and winning one and losing one obvioulsy splits the pot, the other possibility is when u win one board and split on th other, in that case u get 75 % of the pot.

The Moral to the story is that some chopping is not all that bad. If you have a very strong hand, but not the immortal nuts, and have someone drawing slim things like "Running it Twice" and "Insurance" can save you a great deal of heart ache, when they catch that 1 or 2 outer. U split the pot instead of losing your entire stack stack. If you are at a game where they allow these kind of deals, make sure that everyone is willing to make these kind of deals with everyone at the table before you cry collusion.

PantsOnFire · #16 10-22-2007, 02:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am a Poker Dealer and I wander into a very big game from time to time. Both where I work and play are casino cardrooms

In the room where I deal, there are no prop bets whatsoever, so this kind of thing would not be allowed in any form.

However in the room where I play there is a 25-50 PLH/PLO game where many things are allowed. Altho they dont allow a full chop, they do allow a couple things out of the norm.

"Saving"- This is the closest thing to a chop that is allowed. It usually happens when two players get all in on the flop or turn. Usually, if both players agree, the last bet made is pulled back and the rest of the cards are dealt. And then the winner is awarded the pot. I have seen this happen when a third player has been forced out of the pot, and I personally dont like it. Even if it is not malicious in nature, how would u know if it were?

"Insurance"- this happens when 2 people are all in with cards to come and the pot is split according to the odds of winnind the hand. Example, if you are a 2 to 1 dog when the deal is made, you would get 1/3 the pot. Personally I dont mind this form of chopping, but it could still be used to force out an "outside player" if two players are just wantng to chop up another players money.

"Running it Twice"- Most people know what this is but I thought I would mention it. Basically it happens when 2 players get all in whether it is preflop, on flop, or turn. Before the flop there are two ways it is done, 5 and 5 or 3, 2 and 2. 5 and 5 is where there basically 2 5 card boards complete with the burns on flop, turn, and river. If its 3, 2 and 2, there is one flop, a turn and a river, with burns, and another turn and river with burns. You have to win both boards to win the pot and winning one and losing one obvioulsy splits the pot, the other possibility is when u win one board and split on th other, in that case u get 75 % of the pot.

The Moral to the story is that some chopping is not all that bad. If you have a very strong hand, but not the immortal nuts, and have someone drawing slim things like "Running it Twice" and "Insurance" can save you a great deal of heart ache, when they catch that 1 or 2 outer. U split the pot instead of losing your entire stack stack. If you are at a game where they allow these kind of deals, make sure that everyone is willing to make these kind of deals with everyone at the table before you cry collusion.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is all good stuff but I would like to point out one very major distinction. It is one thing for two guys in a heads up pot to go over various ways of playing it out.

It entirely another thing if a third player has been raised out of a pot and THEN, the two remaining players work something out.

PokherJoe · #17 10-22-2007, 03:11 PM

Well most of the time there is a third player on the flop and he gets bet out(90% of the time that player has the weakest hand, just like any other they might fold to a raise), BUT as long as everyone is subject to the same options then its cool.

Truth is most players wont get into these situations at lower stakes, and if you do run into these situations at a lower limits ( 2-5 NL or even 5-10 NL) then i would be cautious, because most likely you wont be given the same options at different table of the same limit.

One last point is that if any deals are to be made at your table make sure that all cards are shown, that will give you an idea of if you are being cheated or not.

Just my two cents