live misclick v. thetakeover 25/50 nl LIVE, 300bb deep...

[fringsrache]

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im going to save this thread a whole lot of time bc i don't want to study for this test.


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I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ae .... coach me?

[jlocdog]

Ceczar,

Very nice post.

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If we assume nick is always making really good higher level decisions, then i think
we have to check the flop, but the reality is that he's going to be betting most of the time with hands that beat you, even if checking that flop with those hands would have been the right move. people are also underestimating how wide your range is and btn's range. the RR is just for 5% of stacks. i think it's the case of posters piling on and engaging in a bit of groupthink. the smallish bet is obviously bad if you don't know how often it will induce a bluff raise.

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I agree that some groupthink has taken place and polarized OP's range a bit too much given 1)how deep the game is playing and 2)the UTG light open with what may be an isolation raise by nick.

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i think a 2k bet is still the best play. this hand does not get easier if the flop is checked, similarly if btn bets, which i think is likely with a large part of his range.

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Not sure I fully agree with this statement. Not to say that the hand gets easier or harder one way or the other but rather checking the flop helps to manage the pot better. There is still a chance that a showdown will come into play. Checking this hand on the flop makes that a possibility while betting it seems to eliminate it. Not sure if that is good, bad or indifferent for many but I value that as a possibility.

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given what's happened so far, if we're committed i think call and call/push the turn is far far better than pushing the flop. i haven't played enough with nick to know how often he'd be making a move here. i don't think he'd try to get you to fold JJ/QQ here in this game, so i don't believe your hand is as obvious as people seem to think it is, especially given your weird bet.

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Agree with this.

[luegofuego]

ive never played 72 but my instincts tells me that doing it for 4BBs a pop should DRASTICALLY change the entire dynamic of the table, shouldnt it? like a sick amount. thats $1400 more in the pot to snatch each time u get it. just the 72 alone should tip the scales into making this a DEFINITE repop preflop. obviously affects it less postflop but still far from negligable. i have not played many hands with nick but if u felt it would be close without the 72 on, it might be a call now. terribly misplayed hand tho, so that makes it kinda hard to comment.

[dlpnyc21]

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if we assume nick is always making really good higher level decisions, then i think we have to check the flop, but the reality is that he's going to be betting most of the time with hands that beat you, even if checking that flop with those hands would have been the right move. people are also underestimating how wide your range is and btn's range. the RR is just for 5% of stacks. i think it's the case of posters piling on and engaging in a bit of groupthink. the smallish bet is obviously bad if you don't know how often it will induce a bluff raise. i think a 2k bet is still the best play. this hand does not get easier if the flop is checked, similarly if btn bets, which i think is likely with a large part of his range.

given what's happened so far, if we're committed i think call and call/push the turn is far far better than pushing the flop. i haven't played enough with nick to know how often he'd be making a move here. i don't think he'd try to get you to fold JJ/QQ here in this game, so i don't believe your hand is as obvious as people seem to think it is, especially given your weird bet.

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very nice post ceczar. fwiw, ceczar has played in these games before and has put in a lot of hours with nick. as he stated, he would be MUCH more likely to bet this flop with hands that beat mine then check it, I actually have never seen him take the rr pre, cr flop line before, he usually just leads with his range.

It seems everyone agrees this flop is a check, given that I bet this small amount, and he cr'd--what is my plan for the rest of the hand? thanks,
dlpnyc21

[ASPoker8]

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I think reraising pre-flop is good because THAT makes your hand much easier to play. If he pushes/rr's you fold... if he flats I'd put him on JJ/AK+ himself and be pretty concerned.

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So essentially, by raising preflop, we are sort of bluffing. We don't get value from worse hands ever.

We have the best hand, we take the 1200 or whatever in the pot.
We have the best hand, we get 5betbluffed and lose ~2400 or whatever.
We don't have the best hand, we lose ~2400 + any other chips we put in postflop (unless we flop a J).


4betting seems pretty bad, the only useful thing I can see it doing is folding out QQ?

[limon]

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Note: We are playing 7-2 for 200 bucks, if that affects anything.


Private game. Game is 7 handed, effective stack size 15k. Average raise size in this game is anywhere from 300-500 generally preflop, there has sometimes been a straddle, but not during this hand. Nick has been playing pretty high gear, and has shown down a bluff earlier in the night. The only hand we have played against each other so far was when he raised btn to 300, I called from SB with 77, flop 883, chk call 600, turn 2, chk chk, river 2, I checked, he bet 1100 and I paid off his 1010.

Not exactly sure how he views me, he probably thinks I'm decent.

UTG, a loose, active player raises to 225, this is an unusually small raise, and I wasn't exactly sure what it meant, I assumed a pretty weak hand (I think he would make it bigger with a stronger hand to discourage multiple callers). Nick immediately makes it 800 to go utg+2. He reraises more than most of the other players preflop in this game, probably has something like 30/20 vpip 7 handed.

I am sitting on 15k, he has me covered, I look down at JJ directly to his left in the hijack. What is the best play here and why? I have not 4 bet him this session, the only time I ever 4 bet him was another session when I did it with AK and I got it in v. his AK for 17k each pre.

I elect to just call. Is this poor? Surprisingly, the btn, also a more frequent reraiser, cold calls.

I am not sure what the btns range is here, but it's probably something like 77-QQ, AQ+. He is likely to 4-bet AK, KK+, but maybe not.

Nick's range is probably generally tight when he is doing it v. an utg raiser, however, the utg's small raise size may have been interpreted by Nick as weakness, as it was by me.


UTG folds. Flop is 10108 two spades, I have JsJx.

Nick checks. What is your action and why? If I am betting here, it would be partially a value bet, and partially an information bet. I am not sure my hand can withstand a raise from either the BTN, or a reraise if Nick checked. However, I thought it would be fairly hard for either of them to raise without a hand that beats mine.

I decided to bet 1700 for value, and go to throw out 3 500 chips, and 2 100 chips...

Accidentally, I make it 1200 (two 500 chips, 2 100 chips). This is a small bet into the approx. 2600 pot.

BTN folds. Nick thinks for a bit, and makes it 4k...

If I call, I am going to have approximately 9k left after my call for the turn.

What is the best play, and what is my plan for the rest of the hands.

Or, alternatively, is this an easy fold?

Thanks,
dlpnyc21

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pre is good. if he got in 17k w/ ak you dont need to open up a rr here. post flop he solidly puts you on a med pp or an "ace buster" type hand cuz he knows ull get in 17k w/ ak. the fact you called off 2k earlier on a similar board means hes raising to make you pay on a draw heavy board. the reason he cr'd here but usually doesnt is becuase its 4 handed. feel free to make an ez fold orrr if money is not a problem weigh your chances of getting him to fold aa/kk w/ a re-raise. or can you freeze him up w/ a flat call? if you can flat call him and take it on the turn. but if you cant freeze him up and hell push the turn you have to riase or fold here. if you have regularly slow played big hands you cant push youll get insta called but if you generally play your big hands fast this is a perfect time for a push.

[2cards2come]

your hand looks SO MUCH like 1010 JJ possibly QQ. it comes down to if he thinks he can push you off those hands.

[ceczar]

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it comes down to if he thinks he can push you off those hands.

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regardless of whether folding JJ is right here or not, there is no way nick expects to get anyone to fold any overpair on this board with a small checkraise. he may think david may have a lower pair he will fold, or some other middling hand, but if nick is bluffing here, it's not because he puts OP on JJ

[omikron]

Would it be so terrible to fold preflop to a reraise of an UTG raiser from a good aggressive player? Entering the pot with a call narrows your range squarely on a pair 99>QQ given he knows you are solid.

Just makes things hard to play +EV poker.

[AcidKnight]

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Would it be so terrible to fold preflop to a reraise of an UTG raiser from a good aggressive player?

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Yes