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#2
10-16-2007, 07:22 PM
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Re: prop players in vegas
[ QUOTE ]
Is the house required to identify these players as props if asked by a player? Every room in Vegas I've been in has a sign indicating they will identify props or shills on player request. [/ QUOTE ] Yes they are required to identify these players on request. I have never heard a formal request, though I have on occasion heard a player ask if a specific player was a house player. I would fully expect this to apply to dealers playing on the clock becaus ethey are in fact playing as props even if they are not hired full-time in that capacity. 
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#3
10-16-2007, 07:26 PM
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Re: prop players in vegas
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Is the house required to identify these players as props if asked by a player? Every room in Vegas I've been in has a sign indicating they will identify props or shills on player request. [/ QUOTE ] Yes they are required to identify these players on request. I have never heard a formal request, though I have on occasion heard a player ask if a specific player was a house player. I would fully expect this to apply to dealers playing on the clock becaus ethey are in fact playing as props even if they are not hired full-time in that capacity. [/ QUOTE ] there was a prior thread regarding casino and poker room employees working on the clock while playing with their own money, they are not considered props in the state of Nevada and therefore they do not have to be identified. This also means the house cannot dictate when, where or how an on the clock dealers plays, nor can the on the clock dealer play with the houses money. A little known fact, prop players are forbidden by law to check-raise. Any employee playing with his or her own money is however allowed to check raise, there is no commission ruling or law that states otherwise.
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#4
10-16-2007, 07:54 PM
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Re: prop players in vegas
Though i am not aware of any rulings made on the issue, it would appear that onder the plain language of the gaming regulation a dealer playing on the clock is at the time he is playing a proposition player.
the relevant language is: [ QUOTE ] 9. Proposition player: A person paid a fixed sum by the licensee for the specific purpose of playing in a card game who uses his own funds and who retains his winnings and absorbs his losses. [/ QUOTE ] At the moment the dealer is playing he is being paid a fixed sum by the casino (hourly wage) for the specific purpose of playing in a card game. The fact that at other times he is paid for other purposes doesn't change that. Unless you have seen a ruling otherwise by gaming or by a court I would tend to suspect that it would be best for a cardroom to identify these players on request. Secondly you are wrong that a proposition is not permitted by law to check raise. While the cardroom policy may prohibit it, the law does not. The regulation you are referring to refers to shills, not props. [ QUOTE ] 23.065 Restrictions on use of shills and proposition players. 1. Shills may not check and raise or play in any manner between themselves or in collusion with others to the disadvantage of other players within the game. 2. Each establishment employing shills or proposition players shall identify such shills or proposition players upon request and shall display a sign clearly legible from each table which states: “Nevada gaming regulations allow the use of shills and proposition players. Shills and proposition players shall be identified by management upon request.” 3. Each licensee shall maintain, in a manner as in the case of all other employees, employment records on each individual engaged as a shill or proposition player; additionally, a list of all shills and proposition players shall be maintained at the card room bank and shall be readily available for inspection. 4. Persons who participate in the management or supervision of games subject to this regulation shall be permitted to act as a shill or proposition player in the establishment where employed if supervision is otherwise provided. 5. All advances to and winnings of a shill shall be utilized only for wagering in card games or turned into the card room bank at the conclusion of play. 6. No more than two proposition players may play in a card game. No more than a combination of four shills and proposition players may play in a card game. 7. Shills may only wager chips or coins. [/ QUOTE ]
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#7
10-17-2007, 07:23 AM
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Re: prop players in vegas
[ QUOTE ]
What's the legal distinction between a shill and a prop player? Does the prop keep his winnings, but the shill returns it to the house? [/ QUOTE ] Per the law psandman posted, shills are defined as playing with house money and return any winnings. [ QUOTE ] 5. All advances to and winnings of a shill shall be utilized only for wagering in card games or turned into the card room bank at the conclusion of play. [/ QUOTE ]
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#8
10-17-2007, 01:12 PM
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Re: prop players in vegas
[ QUOTE ]
A little known fact, prop players are forbidden by law to check-raise. [/ QUOTE ] This is not true. I am pretty sure shills cannot generate action. I might have been the last person to put s hill in a game in Vegas. That was in 2000.
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#9
10-17-2007, 01:19 PM
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Re: prop players in vegas
The real question I would like to know is if Hosts at Casino AZ are allowed to check and raise. If not, I would love to set up a heads up match with Pat Poels. I think I could beat a player of this caliber pretty solidly if he wasn't allowed to check raise...
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#10
10-17-2007, 03:27 PM
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Re: prop players in vegas
[ QUOTE ]
The real question I would like to know is if Hosts at Casino AZ are allowed to check and raise. If not, I would love to set up a heads up match with Pat Poels. I think I could beat a player of this caliber pretty solidly if he wasn't allowed to check raise... [/ QUOTE ] Hosts can do whatever they want. They are not hired as shills and are there to specifically host/build/bring games to a cardroom.
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