Limping 97s on cutoff (NL HE)

[SongheJe]

Hello,
reading an italian forum, I found this concept expressed (talking about 5/10$ No Limit Holdem):
'Limping from cut off with 97s is a retarded, fish move'.
Assume we are talking of a full stack (100x) game.
I answered quoting 'No Limit Hold'em, thery and pratice', where, talking about a 5/10$ game, 1000$ or more stacks, Sklansky/Miller sayd:

(When you are first to enter the pot):
Limping can be definetely be ok. Some macho types will tell you never to limp first in from LP. But that advice belongs to limit games of tournaments. In deep stack cash games, limping, even on the button, will frequentely be a fine play.

I was answered I am a retard because book talks about a 'deep stack' 9-10 handed game, while they were talking about short handed (it was neither specified in their posts) game.
So I was attached with insults by the 'pro' active on the forum because
1) They say they were talking about 6 handed , Sklansky was talking about 9-10 handed
2) They were talking about 100 big blind games, Sklansky was talking about "deep stack"
Thinking about it it doesn't seem to me so different if I'm in a 6 handed or 9 handed game if I am on the cutoff and everybody folded to me. Sure, some theory can think different quality of following players' card because of the 'not good hands' folded by early/middle position players, but I think it's not so influent on the matter..
More, I checked back the book and Sklansky seem to call 'deep stack' a 100 big blind games there.
Forum's Pro suggested me to open a post on this forum and check the insults I would have received if I argue with the concept 'limping 97s on cut off is not necessarily a retard action, is just a possible action in that condition'.
Of course if I am here writing this is not for receiving insults about my thoughts, just to make the discussion clearer to me.
I hope I can have your opinion on this.

Thanks
SongheJe

[El_Hombre_Grande]

I generally would raise, for the combination of metagame and to steal the blinds. I am always looking to raise as many hands as possible late, to get action when I have a monster. and stealing the blinds is an important part of my strategy in 6 man. It keeps me alive while waiting to trap someone.

I don't think its "retarded," though, as there is more than one way to play no limit. I get the impression, though, that Skalansky/Millers book assumes much better implied odds than I find in a common online game. I.E,, its preflop theories are premised on a typical 10 man NL Live game, which is typically fishier.

[Dromar]

Limping in the cutoff can be "fine" in some situations, but I think they're rare, because the power of raising and having position for the rest of the hand is usually too great to pass up.

Taking 97s specifically, I think it's a bad move (compared to raising). I think the only hands you would want to limp with here are hands that
1. can easily dominate hands that would fold if you raise, and
2. are too fragile to be ahead if you raise and get called.

A good example hand is JTo. If you raise and get called, your JTo isn't all that great, and if you raise and they fold, you may have missed out on some postflop value from weaker hands. Limping will keep weaker hands in, while not overplaying your own hand.

With 97s, neither of those 2 things are true, which is why raising is better.

edit: of course, this assumes deep stacks (which I classify as ~100bb or deeper).

[SongheJe]

Of course I (and so I suppose the book) didn't intend 97s' best action on co should be limping. I meant it's just mixable with the raise one without having necessarely to consider the 97s limper guy a retarded.
Infact, the point of the (very animated discussion) in the other forum is '97s limp on cutoff is an idiot move or not ?'
It seems correct it can be considered a 'mixable' action, talking about a 100bb or deeper game.

[Flip-Flop]

Here is my answer:
It is not retarded.

The true tard is the guy who thinks limping is retarded in general and calls the people that disagree retards.

Stack size and position are only 2 factors and there are so many more factors you need to include in your decision.
Limping is sometimes the best move.

[Bonk]

If you don't want to play 79s, then don't but if you do just raise it. You have position therefore greater advantage, not putting more money in is not a good idea. Also, having the blinds have a free flop is just weak.

Live this might be a bit different because some find it much more difficult to 1,2,3-barrel live than on-line.

[Albert Moulton]

PNLHE describes 100bb stacks as "medium" stacks.

Limping is OK because you can play multi-way with a drawing hand in good position. In this case, where you want to flop a big draw and turn a straight with which you can then stack some guy with 2-pair or a set on the turn and river, you'd want the blinds to come a long to catch their 2-pairs or whatever.

Limping might invite a raise from the button, however, in which case you might have to fold if everybody folds around to you and you don't want to play this hand heads up post flop OOP.

Raising is good because it often allows you to buy the button by making him fold many speculative hands that he might otherwise limp (or raise) with, and it tends to isolate the limper(s) against whom you will usually have position and initiative post flop. If the limpers c/f a lot of flops, this raise to buy the button, isolate the limpers, and inflate the pot to steal with a cb can be quite profitable. Also, in a 6-max game where you have to be in SB/BB/UTG 50% of the time, that making the most of your cutoff and button positional advantage becomes very important. So, raising a wider range there when you have the chance to do so might help negate the downside of having to play the blinds and EP spots so often.

FWIW, I play live 9-handed and usually limp with 97s in the situation you describe. Occasionally I'll raise, but not usually.

[Gonso]

A lot of this has to do with your style of play. I'd have a hard time open limping 97s from the CO under normal circumstances, but there are players much better than me that have no problem open limping.