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#11
10-13-2007, 05:51 PM
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Re: Caught between turn donk and flop raiser
[ QUOTE ]
Does that even matter overly [/ QUOTE ] Seriously? - why protect your hand when you dont have much to protect - why make people fold their draws when you yourself are drawing. This whole misunderstanding is popping up over and over again. Why is it that people refuse to understand that when UTG raises then hero dont want the other guys to fold because Hero is drawing slim. 
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#12
10-13-2007, 06:06 PM
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Re: Caught between turn donk and flop raiser
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Does that even matter overly [/ QUOTE ] Seriously? - why protect your hand when you dont have much to protect - why make people fold their draws when you yourself are drawing. This whole misunderstanding is popping up over and over again. Why is it that people refuse to understand that when UTG raises then hero dont want the other guys to fold because Hero is drawing slim. [/ QUOTE ] Are you really saying that a 30/20 guy is ONLY raising when we are beat? I don't buy that. But if your assuptions are correct that what are we doing in this hand? Check-folding the flop? Peeling and folding turn UI? The way I see this hand is that we have top pair in a large pot and our best chance of winning this is getting the 5 outer type hands out and using an aggressive player to help us in that. With a solid read that we are NEVER being raised by worse makes betting attractive also as we save a bet on the river when we fail to improve. So leading is better when we would otherwise have gone to showdown for 1 bet per street. But slightly worse if we would have gone c/f on the river with top pair!
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#13
10-13-2007, 06:29 PM
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Re: Caught between turn donk and flop raiser
c/c flop
c/c turn if a 3rd heart came on the turn id c/c river if a 3rd heart came on the river id b/f river if no 3rd heart came id c/f id also c/c a K and c/r a 3 not sure what to do about the 3h...
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#14
10-13-2007, 06:48 PM
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Re: Caught between turn donk and flop raiser
Stealthy, the pot is not that large, our hand is mediocre but not terribly vulnerable, and what hands are you trying to "protect" it against?
You seem to think that getting raised here is just exactly what we want and I really disagree with this. If you just check you get to see what the rest of the table does before you have to act. Also if you bet and the PFR just calls you end up with initiative in a spot where you don't really want it.
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#15
10-13-2007, 06:57 PM
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Re: Caught between turn donk and flop raiser
[ QUOTE ]
Stealthy, the pot is not that large, our hand is mediocre but not terribly vulnerable, and what hands are you trying to "protect" it against? You seem to think that getting raised here is just exactly what we want and I really disagree with this. If you just check you get to see what the rest of the table does before you have to act. Also if you bet and the PFR just calls you end up with initiative in a spot where you don't really want it. [/ QUOTE ] Yes this does make sense and I have shall we say "softened" my determination that I was right on this one. Check-and-see is valid here and could allow us a quick escape it UTG bets and is raised in LP. I also agree that we don't necessarily want the initiative on this one although continuing to bet and folding to any raise at any point does not seem overly painfull. I still believe that it is reasonable to take a donk line hoping that UTG forces out some hands that very likely have outs against us to either call unprofitably or fold. A 5 outer can call one SB on the flop but not 2. And check-calling 1 bet per street does leave a bit of a taste in the mouth!
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