Emotional Affairs

[duckman]

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Second, I feel like Duckman thinks I'm a self centered little jerk out flirting with a bunch of guys and that couldn't be farther from the truth. I don't even hug my own friends for god's sake. I'm one very reserved girl! I don't know why this bothers me because I don't even know Duckman and why do I care what he thinks of me anyway, but i do.



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You are right you shouldn't care what I think. I think to your credit you have stood back and taken a reasonably objective look at your actions and challenged your motivations.

I have been married for 17 years - the first 8 of which we didn't have kids. I went through some of the types of relationships like the one you describe, and have seen some friends do the same. As mentioned the movie "The Last Kiss" chronicles this well.

So my commentary is more based on personal observation and experience and not a condemnation of you. If I felt that way (which I don't) it would be hypocritical.

In fact you do seem to be a "cool" girl.

I think the question of love is a tricky one and personally I know I could of made a fulfulling life with several other women that I knew other than my wife. I have been physically monagomous throughout my marriage but have had a few affairs of the heart with other women. (Most of them came before we had kids.) My wife has given me two wonderful boys to which I am grateful. They are the main focus of my life.

So you settle down and as a upper middle class guy you realize that 2 other (little) lives depend upon you. Love then takes on a very different meaning than it did for me when I was 27.

In fact contrary to what may be perceived as a "righteous holier than thou" perspective I think the only reason for monogamy is to provide a stable family unit for raising children.

I stumbled across this post literally by accident, I am a Limit donk who I don't think has ever been in here (The Lounge) before. I thought that a perspective of someone in is early forties might be of value here and didn't meant to sound like a troll.

[bogey1]

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So you settle down and as a upper middle class guy you realize that 2 other (little) lives depend upon you. Love then takes on a very different meaning than it did for me when I was 27.

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QFT! Well, I'm not sure love has a different meaning for me, but it now encompasses more people and any mistakes affect more people.

I'm single and break up with a girlfriend, meh, sucks but it's really just us.

If your 40, have kids, in-laws you care about, kids love your grandparents, etc. Now in a break up, there's a large amount of pain to many folks beyond just you and your spouse.

[katyseagull]

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I stumbled across this post literally by accident, I am a Limit donk who I don't think has ever been in here (The Lounge) before. I thought that a perspective of someone in is early forties might be of value here and didn't meant to sound like a troll.

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Duckman,
Your presence is most welcome in the lounge and I didn't think you were a troll at all. A forum needs to have all different perspectives for it to be interesting. I appreciate your take on this topic and look forward to you popping in more often to offer us your views on different lounge subjects. I like the fact that you are forward and you challenge me. It forces me to confront my own b.s. and rethink my attitudes which isn't a bad thing really. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[duckman]

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I stumbled across this post literally by accident, I am a Limit donk who I don't think has ever been in here (The Lounge) before. I thought that a perspective of someone in is early forties might be of value here and didn't meant to sound like a troll.

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Duckman,
Your presence is most welcome in the lounge and I didn't think you were a troll at all. A forum needs to have all different perspectives for it to be interesting. I appreciate your take on this topic and look forward to you popping in more often to offer us your views on different lounge subjects. I like the fact that you are forward and you challenge me. It forces me to confront my own b.s. and rethink my attitudes which isn't a bad thing really. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Thanks for your encouragement. By the number of posts in this thread it is evident that your OP stimulated a lot of thought and discussion.

[daveT]

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Once I went through those things, I realized for the most part I'm not really concerned. My wife can flirt, that doesn't bother me at all. In a sort of roundabout way I feel complimented when another guy thinks my wife is desirable. If she went farther than that, it'd bother me to the extent that I might fear our relationship was failing.

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flirting isn't what bothers me, the fact that there is no clear place to draw a line is what bothers me.



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I am shocked at some of the things I am reading in this thread.

I don't understand the thinking of cheating, because people always say it was an accident, that emotions got the better of them, etc. This line is bullS*

To cheat, you must.

1- Meet a person.
2- Like the person.
3- Find yourself attracted to the person.
4- Cheating:
a- Meet the person.
b- Go to a private destination
c- Sit at private destination
d- Talk at private destination
e- touch
f- hug
g- kiss
h- kiss more
i- put your hands under clothing

You know, that this list is going to go on and on until way past Z. The reality is that to cheat, it must be a premeditated act. I don't buy that all of a sudden "you don't know what came over you." You are unhappy with your present lover. You want to get away from, hurt, and abandon this person.

These people that sell books. Really? You had eye contact with a girl who is clearly miserable with her boyfriend and that is what you attained out of a book? These guys claimed to have sex every day for a year, and look at how ugly they are, and look at what was just written. Sorry, but that is dehumanizing, and it is no wonder why you cannot have a relationship with a woman without sex. You don't see them as a human, with intelligence. The fact that she has so little self control is projection at best. You will find yourself attracted to women that see men as meat, because you see women as meat.

Get that crap out of your brain. There is nothing wrong with seeing "them" as human beings. I understand that part of growing up is seeing women as mystique, and that will always be there. It does not mean that you have to blind your eyes to never lifting the veil. You may find that "they" have different perspectives. You may find that "they" can think.

The reason why it is called "game" is because that is all it is. It is a game. There is no reciprocation beyond, lust and a little sex once in a while. There is no need to feel human attachment with "game" because your only goal is to get laid. You don't want to know about personality, or the fact that "they" are real, thinking, human beings, and that the "game" is being played on you. "Game" is making yourself available to her when she wants sex. You don't gain any benefit, and you are the one getting "played out." She go on the any one next guy and get sex just as easily as she got if from you. She has no attachments to you, and she has no need to see you again. If she is in a relationship, her man is winning anyways. He gets her 1.000 times. You got her once, if you really want to keep score.

Why should you be proud of yourself for "forcing" a woman to cheat on her husband. This is an example of people allowing themselves to be broken down into the most basic of instincts. I'll admit. I have slept with attached girls. If you ever ever find yourself in this situation, the easiest "game" is to listen to her complain about how terrible her boyfriend/ husband is, and I didn't charge you $32.99. The reason it worked is because I let them know that they aren't meat, and that is how they feel that there SO saw them. Emotional Affair? Yes, but going in, it was always obvious what was up.

When people are talking about drawing lines, look at my incomplete list above. Is it so hard to figure it out? You can stop at one or go the the next. There is no defined lines, and looking above you see that you can safely draw a line in several areas, without going into cheating. Also note that the above shows a direct linear path to cheating. Adding friendship to the equation makes the path much longer. Trying to define a line is over-thinking.

Another sick thinking, that I hear from people reading these books is to never allow yourself to be put into the friendship bucket. This is not a bad thing. There are girls I know that I would be down-right miserable with if I was dating them. I put them in the friendship bucket. I don't even see them sexually. Honestly, I am happy with my relationship with these girls, because I can wake up any day, call them, and I know they are happy to hear from me because there is no added heat. I have perspective that I otherwise would never be able to attain.

And for the desperadoes looking for a good one-night stand: They are over-rated. You wake up the next morning wanting more, and your not getting it. That is not a really bad thing, but to have and to hold the next night is far superior in my opinion. Also, sitting in a doctors office a week later takes the fun out of it to be sure.

Long rant, I know, but I think you need to recognize that your perspectives on how "they" are is unhealthy at the least. It helps to make "just friends" with girls, because a relationship is about keeping a friendship as much as it is about the physical, and if you are in a relationship with someone you do not see as a human, or someone that you cannot relate to beyond sex, then you will be among the people that get married too soon and divorced in less than 3 years, in other words, a common statistic.

[Blarg]

Glad to see someone else say it. I thought I had entered into the twilight zone for a minute there. I'm surprised none of the lounge ladies have noted any absurdity in their sex being described as essentially automatons without an operative will of their own. I'm even surprised few of the men posed any objection.

I think your point is strong about making friends, too, because if women are too spooky to you or seem almost completely like sex objects, and you resort to lazy, rigid and demeaning ways of looking at them, you might be great at getting them, but you will probably suck at keeping them. At least without their spirit either dying or remaining largely unknown to you. That's fine for one-night stands, of course. But for most of us, not so good for anything else.

[bogey1]

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Once I went through those things, I realized for the most part I'm not really concerned. My wife can flirt, that doesn't bother me at all. In a sort of roundabout way I feel complimented when another guy thinks my wife is desirable. If she went farther than that, it'd bother me to the extent that I might fear our relationship was failing.

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flirting isn't what bothers me, the fact that there is no clear place to draw a line is what bothers me.



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I don't understand the thinking of cheating, because people always say it was an accident, that emotions got the better of them, etc.


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You ever make a bad poker decision due to tilt? Isn't that emotions getting the better of you?

Otherwise, yea, I agree with most of what you said, though it was very confrontationally stated. One thing though was very untrue though, or, well, certainly not true all the time.
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You are unhappy with your present lover. You want to get away from, hurt, and abandon this person.


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Nope, I'm quite happy. I can see however making a bad decision given the right set of circumstances. It'd have nothing to do with dissatisfaction with my wife and everything to do with the person I'm cheating with.

[Blarg]

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Once I went through those things, I realized for the most part I'm not really concerned. My wife can flirt, that doesn't bother me at all. In a sort of roundabout way I feel complimented when another guy thinks my wife is desirable. If she went farther than that, it'd bother me to the extent that I might fear our relationship was failing.

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flirting isn't what bothers me, the fact that there is no clear place to draw a line is what bothers me.



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I don't understand the thinking of cheating, because people always say it was an accident, that emotions got the better of them, etc.


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You ever make a bad poker decision due to tilt? Isn't that emotions getting the better of you?

Otherwise, yea, I agree with most of what you said, though it was very confrontationally stated. One thing though was very untrue though, or, well, certainly not true all the time.
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You are unhappy with your present lover. You want to get away from, hurt, and abandon this person.


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Nope, I'm quite happy. I can see however making a bad decision given the right set of circumstances. It'd have nothing to do with dissatisfaction with my wife and everything to do with the person I'm cheating with.

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Ever jump off a bridge, swerve into the oncoming headlights, knock a kid riding a bike on the side of the road into a ditch, or punch your mom in the face, because, oh, say, your emotions got the better of you?

That's a thin excuse, at best, for some situations, and doesn't get at the real reason certain actions might occur. The reason they occur is because you are who you are, not because of some outside stimuli. That's just passing the buck and giving yourself an easy out. All the stimuli did is reveal who you are, which was there before the stimuli ever arose and will be there after they have passed.

[bogey1]

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Ever jump off a bridge, swerve into the oncoming headlights, knock a kid riding a bike on the side of the road into a ditch, or punch your mom in the face, because, oh, say, your emotions got the better of you?

I think that's a thin excuse, at best, for some situations, and doesn't get at the real reason certain actions might occur. The reason they occur is because you are who you are, not because of some outside stimuli. That's just passing the buck and giving yourself an easy out. All the stimuli did is reveal who you are, which was there before the stimuli ever arose and will be there after they have passed.

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Denying your emotional state affects your decision making is just pure and complete crap. Humans are not self contained deterministic automatons. Outside stimuli has a significant effect, and a biological effect. Levels of endorphins, testerone, etc all are affected by outside stimuli and all affect the human mind.

I had quite a bit of respect for your thoughts up to this point Blarg. But that garbage just completely threw it all out the window. The idea that people always behave identically regardless of external forces is unbelievably wrong.

[Blarg]

Saying you have no control over your emotions and behavior is equally crap.

Surely there is a middle ground?

I find using genetics as an excuse for personal behavior dodgy, to say the least.

EMPLOYEE: I didn't mean to surprise Jeannie with a kiss in the storeroom today and grind my junk into her. Sorry you're getting sued. My testosterone level has been really high for the last few days. Here's a note from my doctor ...

ME: You're fired.