Turning Hand Up Headup = Unethical?

[psandman]

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What is the reason given by the tda for not allowing this in tournaments?

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You know the TDA doesn't publish there reasoning.

But its pretty clear that there are legitmate concenrs in tournament play about this sort of thing that don't exist in ring games.

In tournament play you need to worry about this being used for chip dumping. My partner is shortstacked and I have a big stack. I want to dump the maximum amount I can to him, but when he pushes all in I don't know whether I have him beat or not. If I have him beat I want to fold and let him take the pot as it is. If I don't have him beat I want to call to double him up.

so now I flip my cards and look for his intentional reaction to tell me what to do. This isn't an issue in a ring game but obviously is a concern in a tournament.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

Thank you for your responses...
After reading the all the posts I noticed that the 'you are an angle shooter' people could not give *ONE* coherant explanation why turning up ones card HU was a bad thing. The typical response seemed to be, 'If you do that to me, I'll call the clock on you". With regard to having the clock called on me, I say, "Ooooooooooooohhhh! I'm so scared [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. I thought these B&M veterans might be able to give me a good argument but all I heard was crickets....

My conclusion is this is a good tactic for catching bluffers and people over-playing their hands... I'm glad Doyle revealed this tactic in his book. I won't be able to do this in the Choctaw card room but as a substitute I can just verbally announce I had the A9-s of hearts for the nut flush, show the dealer my cards, and get my read that way.... I will get the same result either way.... But I will follow their silly rules....

I think AlCaponeJr was correct. Some nit got a bluffed snapped off with a guy using this tactic and kept whining like a little baby to the card room mgmt until they appeased his unmanly like complaints..... Too many cry babies in poker rooms. When I get my $100 bluffed picked off....I don't go crying to the card room mgmt....

[Mr Rick]

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After reading the all the posts I noticed that the 'you are an angle shooter' people could not give *ONE* coherant explanation why turning up ones card HU was a bad thing.

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Bav did.

If you fail to announce that you are not folding, the other guy could muck his cards thinking he won the hand. Then you could claim the pot by calling.

From the original post it seems you did not issue this warning.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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If you fail to announce that you are not folding, the other guy could muck his cards thinking he won the hand. Then you could claim the pot by calling.

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This is not an issue in my card room. There is a yellow line on the table which bets must cross to be considered a bet and cards must cross to be considered a muck. My cards stayed behind the yellow line.....

Like I said....no one can give me a coherant reason why Doyle's tactic is an angleshoot.

[Mr Rick]

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There is a yellow line on the table which bets must cross to be considered a bet and cards must cross to be considered a muck.

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My guess is that for most responders the betting line is a courtesy only line. That is true for my post. I have never played in a card room such as yours.

I am curious what room it is.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

Choctaw Casino in Durant, OK.

[PantsOnFire]

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The TDA made a rule that you couldn't expose your cards in tournament play even heads up. There is a valid reason for this rule in tournaments.

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Is this a standard rule for all tournaments, or does it vary by casino? In a tournament at the Showboat in AC, I had an opponent expose his cards to me to get a read before calling. I won the hand, but I asked after busting the guy if the move was legal because I wanted to know the rule. The dealer said that a player could expose his hand once he was heads up and the other player was all in. I didn't bother to confirm the dealer's statement with the floor at a break. Was he right?

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Of course this rules varies.

However, the usual interpretation of this rule is that in TDA tournaments you can do this "heads up" but this means when only two players are left in the tournamnet not a full table and two players are left in the hand.

[psandman]

I don't buy bav's reason. because if a player turns his card face up but continues to keep his cards I have never once thought he was folding, its only when he makes an act which looks like he is mucking (which he could do without exposing his card) that any confusion is occuring.

[PantsOnFire]

Heads up in a cash game, I think it is a completely legitimate play.

In a tourney however, keeping fairness among all participants is paramount since your tournament equity changes depending on what is happening to your opponents. So an all-in between two players in a tournament where one could bust affects all players in the tournament.

I just can't put my finger on how this affects the outcome though other than some form of collusion maybe. Or perhaps a player not in the hand might have a read on the all-in player and groan when he sees the flipped cards giving the flipper the read he needs to know he is ahead. Or maybe just the potential for any of this to occur was enough for the TDA to make this rule.

[alydom]

Funny, I lurk more than I post....and I have seen this thread 3 times in the last 2 weeks.

IMO....technically legal. But WTF, once you start doing it, you become "that guy". And I never want to be "that guy".