88 out of position Kxx flop

efficacy · #1 10-09-2007, 08:24 PM

PAHUD being retardo (It is rendering my pstars buttons unclickable) so no reads

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, CO 3-bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.70 BB

rzk · #2 10-09-2007, 08:42 PM

i don't think you should be trying to knock utg out on this dry flop where he can't have overcards, he's very likely to fold on his own (or call with a worse pp). so i'd just call the flop which would avoid the crappy situation you ended up in.

as played, you have to consider that CO may 3-bet as a way to get a free card on the turn or a cheap showdown. because of this, i feel that without reads folding, calling and c/f the turn, and calling the flop and the turn and c/f'ing the river are pretty darn close in terms of EV.

efficacy · #3 10-09-2007, 08:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i don't think you should be trying to knock utg out on this dry flop where he can't have overcards, he's very likely to fold on his own (or call with a worse pp). so i'd just call the flop which would avoid the crappy situation you ended up in.

as played, you have to consider that CO may 3-bet as a way to get a free card on the turn or a cheap showdown. because of this, i feel that without reads folding, calling and c/f the turn, and calling the flop and the turn and c/f'ing the river are pretty darn close in terms of EV.

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Ok... here is my thought process, tell me if it sucks.

If I c/r and get heads up with pfr, he will rarely 3bet worse hands than mine on this flop.

In my experience, people will 3bet and take a free card with two over cards (and maybe some back door draws), but that is not possible on this flop. Do players 3bet K high flops with AQ here?

I will fold out a lot of live 6 outers, either immediately or on the turn. Also, I think there is a non-zero chance villain folds 99-QQ. Am I being too optimistic?

efficacy · #4 10-09-2007, 09:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PAHUD being retardo (It is rendering my pstars buttons unclickable) so no reads

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed... turned off flicker free drawing.

Absolution · #5 10-09-2007, 09:05 PM

I would actually just call here and encourage the other guy to come along. This is a dry flop and if there are two of you sticking around, the CO should be more cautious on the turn if he has missed. On the other hand, if you had position on the limper and he called, I would like raising for the same reason. The problem is that flop information is unreliable so I like to wait for the more reliable streets against aggressive players (I may be wrong, but I assume aggressive players are the norm at 5/10 these days) unless I can make them play more honestly by trapping other players. If UTG folds and you end up on the turn out of position against this guy, then the hand becomes trickier without reads, but you can at least make bet two more streets.

efficacy · #6 10-09-2007, 09:17 PM

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I would actually just call here and encourage the other guy to come along.

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So, let's say the other guy comes along. If the turn bricks off and it is checked to the pf raiser who bets, it is an easy fold for us, right?

xdeucesx · #7 10-09-2007, 11:26 PM

Efficacy, you have pretty strong show down value here imo. Instead of raising the turn I like a check call bet any blank river. Obvs we are folding to a river raise but I feel you get looked up enough with Ace high that you dont want to check behind on a blank river. If he is aggro enough to pull a river bluff raise then more power too him but I feel this is the best line to take.

xdeucesx · #8 10-09-2007, 11:28 PM

Uggg read the hand wrong... adjg;laksj;lasjgaklsj. As played I peel the three bet check/fold uninproved. And I think you played the hand optimally. I originally thought it checked through the flop.

rzk · #9 10-10-2007, 01:34 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
I would actually just call here and encourage the other guy to come along.

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So, let's say the other guy comes along. If the turn bricks off and it is checked to the pf raiser who bets, it is an easy fold for us, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

against unknowns yes, relatively easy fold for me in that case.

jakbse · #10 10-10-2007, 02:07 AM

I would 3-bet preflop if I thought there was a chance to get rid of UTG. Since the flop is dry except for an unlikely straight draw I think your fold is correct.