50NL 87s Rivered Flush Faces Shove - Page 2

Numfar · #11 10-09-2007, 10:19 AM

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Also deffo bet the flop. You are basically saying "when I check I dont want to bluff because you will call, but when I have a hand I want to bet because you will call" - Pretty transparent.

[/ QUOTE ]Generally speaking I agree with you but bluffing at someone who is usually going to call is not always the right thing to do - especially if they are a donkey because there is little "metagame" value. In this case, the board texture comes into play along with a bunch of other things. A different board I c-bet, a different villain I c-bet, even on a different site at a different time I c-bet. I will also occasionally check behind with a made hand against this type of villain in case someone else at the table is paying attention.

As it turned out, based on what villain had, a c-bet might have been good but that's being results oriented. I'm happy with the check behind but fully understand that this is a bet 90% of the time - especially with the GSSD.

BTW, your analysis of the hand is close to what I thought at the time. I called but wasn't happy about it at all.

scallop · #12 10-09-2007, 10:50 AM

Yeah but if we bet every flop then we can win the pot when we have the worst hand and we gain value from the best hand.

When you raise suited connectors, esp UTG you need to try and win the pot. Given that you (miraculously) have position, HU, then I think betting here is way than checking, for the reasons I gave previously and also for future value from our bi hands.

Results?

mickske · #13 10-09-2007, 10:53 AM

Nothing to add to this discussion. Bet flop, call river.

scallop · #14 10-09-2007, 11:02 AM

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Nothing to add to this discussion. Bet flop, call river.

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Get that post count up. (OMG DID I JUST TYPE THAT?)

Numfar · #15 10-09-2007, 11:19 AM

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Yeah but if we bet every flop then we can win the pot when we have the worst hand and we gain value from the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't believe that we should c-bet every time - there are some very useful stickies in regards to c-betting here. Sure, your default position should be to c-bet but there can be reasons not to.

Results? Straight Flush with A4. You were close [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Edited to say thanks for everyones input. Obviously the fact that I was facing a straight flush here is kind of irrelevant but I was wondering if I should have sniffed out a higher flush.

scallop · #16 10-09-2007, 11:22 AM

I would have preferred 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] - then you can cry about bad beats.... stil I am surprised how many people snap call here. I really think these sorta open shoves are:

Nuts - 90%
Second Nuts - 9%
Bluff - 1%

RaidanKR · #17 10-09-2007, 12:56 PM

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Seriously tho... how often are these overbet open shoves bluffs?

i think 46 is his most likely holding that we beat, and if its 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] then.... just lol is all i can say.

I call, but I really hate it tbh.

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You put villain on 4c6c? Hard luck if it is but doubt it, we are miles ahead of his likely range, even on a pretty tight range:

30 games 0.005 secs 6,000 games/sec

Board: Jd 9h 3c 5c 2c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 16.667% 16.67% 00.00% 5 0.00 { JJ, 99, AcKc, AcJc, KcQc, QcJc, 6c4c, J9o, 64o }
Hand 1: 83.333% 83.33% 00.00% 25 0.00 { 8c7c }

bsball8806 · #18 10-09-2007, 03:43 PM

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I would have preferred 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] - then you can cry about bad beats.... stil I am surprised how many people snap call here. I really think these sorta open shoves are:

Nuts - 90%
Second Nuts - 9%
Bluff - 1%

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is how we treat river overshoves, I think we lose a lot of value from extremely good hands that are not the nuts/near nuts. I'm still standing by my original opinion that a straight/set is what he most likely has. It's very difficult to give him credit for SF/higher flush here.

You're No Daisy · #19 10-09-2007, 03:47 PM

You raised preflop and you should have c-bet the flop. As played, call the river. His shove looks really suspicious. I doubt he has the flush. Looks like he slow played 2 pair.

AC

scallop · #20 10-09-2007, 04:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would have preferred 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] - then you can cry about bad beats.... stil I am surprised how many people snap call here. I really think these sorta open shoves are:

Nuts - 90%
Second Nuts - 9%
Bluff - 1%

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is how we treat river overshoves, I think we lose a lot of value from extremely good hands that are not the nuts/near nuts. I'm still standing by my original opinion that a straight/set is what he most likely has. It's very difficult to give him credit for SF/higher flush here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villian is WAY more likely to 4-bet the turn that open shove a river that made a bunch of draws.