20NL: 2nd barrel on this dry board? (probably boring hand)

Genz · #1 10-08-2007, 05:43 PM

Since I vowed to pick up a more efficient session review technique, I was thinking about this spot. Is this a good spot for a 2nd barrel? The board is basically the same as on the flop and he wasn't scared of the K on the flop if he limp called with a PP and I don't know what he could be drawing at given the dryness of the flop. So give it up since he called a bet with one player yet to act on the flop or give it another shot and try using brute force?

I have only a very small sample about villain. He seems to be one of the 35/10/3 direction.

Carlos Poker 0.10/0.20, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

saw flop | saw showdown

Button Button ($23.61)
SB ($22.31)
BB Hero ($19.90)
UTG UTG ($16.35)
UTG+1 ($54.59)
CO ($19.17)

Preflop: Hero is in the BB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls 0.20, 2 folds, Button calls 0.20, SB calls 0.10, Hero raises to 1.00, UTG calls 1.00, Button calls 1.00, 1 fold.

Flop (3.80) 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero bets 2.40, UTG calls 2.40, 1 fold.

Turn (8.60) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero ???

MaltbyStu · #2 10-08-2007, 05:51 PM

If you 2nd barrel this you have put ~50% of your stack in OOP with Ace high.

I couldn't do it.

achtzhen · #3 10-08-2007, 05:52 PM

I think c/f would be best on this flop against two other people oop. Turn is most definitely a check.

On hands like this I have been cing the flop and if it checks all the way around then ill bet out on the turn.

wingchunflush · #4 10-08-2007, 05:53 PM

Wow I think atthe table i would 2nd barrel but in a vacuum I dont think this is a good idea.

KEW · #5 10-08-2007, 05:56 PM

Absent a better read I prolly do not even C-bet the flop OOP into 2 villains...After having the C-bet called on the flop I am shutting down..

Hail Eris · #6 10-08-2007, 06:01 PM

I fire a 2nd barrel here almost always HU, but rarely when he calls with a player left to act. Also the 4 is not a great card because it improves the only draw he can have. People who don't cbet this flop into 2 are definitely losing money though.

Genz · #7 10-08-2007, 06:04 PM

What flop are you guys going to cbet against 2 villains if not this one? Villains both limp called and there are very few hands that can connect with this flop. I don't cbet a lot against more than one villain, esp. on this limit on this site. But I really think if there is a flop where it has fold equity, because both villain will most likely have a pure nothing, it's this.

Or would you bet on a dry flop like 2-tone and more straighty? What's your reasoning? 2 high cards = more FE vs. smallish PPs? Hit me.

bozzer · #8 10-08-2007, 06:10 PM

this is the best flop you can get to cbet on OOP 3way. I don't two barrel here though. pps maybe make up slightly more of his range than Kx, but I still don't think there's much value here.

MaltbyStu · #9 10-08-2007, 06:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What flop are you guys going to cbet against 2 villains if not this one?

[/ QUOTE ]
One that hit me or with some good outs.

[ QUOTE ]
Villains both limp called and there are very few hands that can connect with this flop. I don't cbet a lot against more than one villain, esp. on this limit on this site. But I really think if there is a flop where it has fold equity, because both villain will most likely have a pure nothing, it's this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Main villain plays 35% of his hands, you can maybe narrow this a litttle for calling your PF raise but it will still include any card. If he stayed around for the flop he had a made hand or likely paired the board. No way these people let a pair go.

Genz · #10 10-08-2007, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What flop are you guys going to cbet against 2 villains if not this one?

[/ QUOTE ]
One that hit me or with some good outs.

[ QUOTE ]
Villains both limp called and there are very few hands that can connect with this flop. I don't cbet a lot against more than one villain, esp. on this limit on this site. But I really think if there is a flop where it has fold equity, because both villain will most likely have a pure nothing, it's this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Main villain plays 35% of his hands, you can maybe narrow this a litttle for calling your PF raise but it will still include any card. If he stayed around for the flop he had a made hand or likely paired the board. No way these people let a pair go.

[/ QUOTE ]

With unpaired starting hands, you only hit one of your cards only about 1/3 of the time. The same goes for villain, obv. So unless he has a PP, he has nothing here the huge majority of the time, ESPECIALLY if he plays a lot of hands. And this board is really unlikely to have hit a lot of hands. And the definition of a continuation bet is that you keep the pressure up when you haven't hit, because from a mathematical standpoint, your villain will have just as little the huge majority of the time and you can take the pot down. If you hit the flop, you are value betting, not c-betting. And if you never cbet and only vbet, then you will be hugely exploitable and giving a lot of pots away for free.

Edit: or were you arguing against a 2nd barrel with the 2nd part of your post? I read it as an argument against a cbet on the flop.