Believer? Do I even have a choice?

[hitch1978]

I would really like it if this post doesn't turn into a Theist vs Athiest battle.

I have been prompted to make this post by, among others, the 'what would it take you to become a thiest?' thread.

There seems to be, (correct me if I'm wrong) a theme that, and I don't know if the arguement only applies to Christians, if you choose to believe in god you are granted salvation, and as a result, will go to heaven. Obviously I am simplyfiyng the issue massively, and I am not meaning to cause offence by doing so. If there is something about the line I describe that changes the arguement I am about to make then please correct me, however, if you disagree with the symantics, or the simplification, but it doesn't change the general line of thought I am attempting to describe, then please indulge me and let it ride.

I once had a conversation with a Christian about his religion. A simplified version now follows.

Him; If you believe in God and Jesus you will be rewarded with salvation. (Insert whatever alternative works for you instead of salvation.)

Me; But I do not choose to believe in something. I believe I am wearing shoes because I have overwhelming evidence of the fact. I can see them on my feet, I remember putting them on. It is possible I am not wearing shoes, there are numerous explanations for that possibility. I may be mad, or drugged, or there may be some alien pumping the sight of my shoes and the memory of me putting them on into my head, but upon wheighing the evidence I have to conclude that I am, in fact wearing shoes. That is what I believe.

Him; But you can choose to act like you believe in Christ. And in those actions you can find him.

Me; How can I act like I believe in something I do not? And what purpose would it serve? Acting like I am wearing no shoes would not alter the fact that I believe I have shoes on. To live like I believe in Christ would be hypocritical.

In short, I am saying, as an athiest what choice do I have?

[tame_deuces]

[ QUOTE ]

In short, I am saying, as an athiest what choice do I have?

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite a few I'd say. As an atheist you're free to make your own deductions on what you are and how things work. Maybe more than anything else you have the power of perspective at your disposal. I'm not saying theists can't have perspective, but it is much easier for atheists. Once you get around the fact that there are almost endless truths in the world, some of them conflict with eachother - and may still all be somewhat right! - I think to have this perspective is the best thing you got. And besides, atheists get to say 'I was wrong, I wasn't wearing shoes' without their lifes falling into ruin.

As for believing in something you don't support. Well, examine it and study it. There are plenty of phlogiston theories around, and skepticism is important. And er..that's it I'd say. Marvel at the world and all that.

[madnak]

It may be possible to nurture a belief in yourself. If so, then it surely isn't easy. But I don't think this is what your friend is asking you to do. Chances are, he thinks that there is some error in your thinking that can be resolved if you "see the light." As a result, he probably doesn't fully appreciate the magnitude of your task.

Still, you could go along with him. What if there is some error in your thinking, and his view is the rational view? How would you become aware of that? Is there any way for you to rule out that possibility?

[einbert]

You could pretend to be a theist, but even then you go to hell for all eternity.

Sucks for you, heh.

[bunny]

I agree with you 100% - you cant choose to believe something. I would disagree with your friend that you can or should "fake it" for a while and see if you come to brainwash yourself, that doesnt seem a good tactic in forming beliefs to me.

In my opinion, all you can do is choose to critically examine your own beliefs. If you discover some contradiction or weakness in your views, my experience is you will stop believing them. That doesnt mean you'll become a christian, but I dont think you should set out to form beliefs based on where you want to end up.

[Phil153]

The basic premise:

God is shouting his love at you
The hand of God is obvious in the world
The words and stories of Jesus are stirring and compelling.

If you don't hear or see these things, it's because you've hardened your heart to God and His message. Kind of the same way the cruel have hardened their heart to the suffering of others and their own feelings empathy. So it is very much a choice in that sense.

That's the basic argument you're trying to rebut, and I believe that's the framework by which most Christians assert the validity and just nature of their heaven/hell beliefs.

[hitch1978]

I kind of hoped a Thiest would tell me how he thught I should approach the 'problem' so I could develope the principles in the 'conversation' in the OP.