When Do You Incorporate Table Image to your game.

[OziBattler]

well if you are going to do that then dont forget to multiply by a factor X where X covers all the extra lurkers who read but dont post because they are too scared to post lest they get berated.

honestly though, I dont think I run into many 2+2ers when I play at all....but I do think I run into people who think they can play who have some poker education from books or other sources and those people probably try and pay attention.....I also think that heroes can get way more value by actually paying attention at tables and noticing what OTHERS do. reads ftw (I wish I did it more but I love to multitable)). good notes + appropriate viewing of PAHUD stats + solid play = WINNAR.

FWIW I use PT and I tend to assume that other people who are trying to play tag have it as well. i also display my own table stats on PAHUD to get an idea of how Im running. I have a few notes on people who I suspect started to play back at me and can get tricky but it doesnt happen very often and Im not a fan of making -EV moves to get a good (fishy) image. 2bb.

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dont forget to multiply by a factor X where X covers all the extra lurkers who read but dont post because they are too scared to post lest they get berated.

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LDO
but they all play 100-200 so they don't really care what we have to say [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Smurph64]

I posted this in another thread about my thoughts at manipulating a table to react to you but that isn't the same as table image.

Players will notice wild aggressive play and you can use that to your advantage if you are careful.

Some react slowly and others react passively and still others over react to you if you start playing a lot of hands aggressively.

So in reality its your sheer lack of having a quality table image that can get the microers to react to you beneficially.

I can at the same time be very comfortable in stating the fact that very few people react at all to TAG's so they respect your action.

If they did, it probably would mean they wouldn't play.

Don't bluff because of your image expecting that enough will make you steal a hand.

Rather its easier to make them think you are a donkey or moron or calling station by being that play type and then changing back to TAG as soon as they notice.

The only way to incorporate table image properly in my mind is to radically change it and then determine which players react to that change.

So far for me at least I have found very few that have a clue.

It may be ironic and it may be a coincidence but those that do recognize table image I don't play against very often.

I don't sit down at their tables and they don't sit down at mine.

That is pretty easy to do at these levels still, so enjoy it while its hot.

[rigmarole]

Alot of good replies, thank you!

I agree that there are much more important facets of my game that I need to work on. I have no intent of obsessing and being "table image focused" when I sit down and play. But it is a consideration in the back of my mind, as well as a curiousity.

I think alot of the things that have been stated in the replies though (despite the disclaimers of them not being table image) are indeed table image related issues.

Playing hyper aggressive or a being calling station for a couple of hands to give the impression you are something you are not, that in my opinion is manipulation of table image. You are inticing your opponents to react based on the image you have portrayed (if you can make a certain villan react consistantly, that get's incorporated into your table image of that person) . This is a short term example of it, but I think that it goes well beyond what is obvious and plain to see in a single hand or a couple of orbits around the table.

Not only does your table image affect your opponents in the cognizant decisons that they make, it affects them subconciously as well.

To further elaborate on my statement in my original post "When I bring my tight A game to the table, I can sometimes see the fear in the folds from my early position raise after 4 or so orbits" and a statement made in this thread and commonly throughout this forum "that your opponents are not paying attention"... I don't think it really matters... it's like getting burned when you touch a hot stove or shocked when pissing on an electric fence... your subconcious mind will tell you... I'm NOT doing that again. They experienced something bad and somewhere they do remember it.

In most cases the fold to my preflop raise was not a cognizant or concious decision, they are on autopilot and not paying attention.

The inverse of this is when you flop a boat ... you bet and a villan you've played many times before calls, the turn pairs the board villan bets and you conciously think to bet but for some reason you just have a bad feeling... you've been in a situation before with this hand many times ... but didn't have the bad feeling... but for some reason you know something bad is going to happen this time... villan shows quads.

I'm not saying that this should be a focus... and highly discourage anyone pulling a bluff or any other play on the grounds of what is stated here alone... but more along the lines of something you should be cognizant of (even at these early stages of our poker lives)... not only of your table image but of your opponnents, as it changes over the course of your life, a session, and even a hand.

I think table image goes far beyond what is obviously seen, and subtly creeps into areas we can't even imagine it is.

Are some of the things that I describe part of what some people call the metagame?

Rig

[Smurph64]

It's all part of the metagame but the fact is players at this level simply do not react to tight aggressive poker consistently to use it as a tool in your playset to 'justify' a move that is not ABC.

You can use the opposite and pretend to be a maniac but in reality that is the only one that will establish a table image for you that is consistent across the players.

In other words, no one will recognize you as a tight aggro, or timid mouse, or weak tight, rock or any other descriptive but maniac, idiot or donkey.

They will only notice if you show them a winning hand that isn't AKs or a premium hand.

That is what defines a good player however, as someone who is able to recognize opportunities where because of position or pot odds they can play less than premium hands and still make positive ev plays.

If that causes players to think you are less than a tag that is fine by me. But the difference is I didn't manipulate my play to adjust my image rather they interpreted my play as adjusting my image.

That is a very fundamental difference in approach to what I think you originally suggested.

You suggested that you noticed that people started avoiding you because you sensed 'fear' in their folds.

That is proof that they subconsciously adapt to your play but that is not necessarily a good thing.

Your table image has in fact made them play smarter by folding hands they shouldn't be playing in the first place.

I never want to portray myself as a tight aggro player but at the same time if someone sees me as a tight aggro player I need to be aware of it as quickly as possible.

That is why it is important to watch your opponents and their betting patterns and focus on them rather than focusing on yourself.

[rigmarole]

Thanks Smurph... I believe this is the meat and potatoes of what I was looking for.

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That is what defines a good player however, as someone who is able to recognize opportunities where because of position or pot odds they can play less than premium hands and still make positive ev plays.

In other words, no one will recognize you as a tight aggro, or timid mouse, or weak tight, rock or any other descriptive but maniac, idiot or donkey.

They will only notice if you show them a winning hand that isn't AKs or a premium hand.

That is what defines a good player however, as someone who is able to recognize opportunities where because of position or pot odds they can play less than premium hands and still make positive ev plays.

If that causes players to think you are less than a tag that is fine by me. But the difference is I didn't manipulate my play to adjust my image rather they interpreted my play as adjusting my image.

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Rig