flop c/r limit vs no limit

[lastcardcharlie]

1st no limit post; I'm another refugee from limit; I've read the FAQs on this forum; sorry if this has been covered there or has been asked here a million times before ..

I'm getting the impression that one should c/r flops a lot less in NL than in limit, particularly when there is more than one opponent? In limit I c/r flops mostly for hand protection against the players to my immediate left, but also to mix up my game a bit. I try this tactic at NL but (at least in the limited time I've been playing NL) I find that flops tend to get checked around more. However, if I c/r less then of course my game becomes more transparent. I would appreciate any advice or pointers to the basic principles of when to c/r flops in NL, particularly as compared to when to do this in limit.

Again, apologies if this is too vague a question or if it has been asked and answered many times already.

[wslee00]

general rule, don't c/r in NL... it's usually almost always better to bet out. A c/r is very strong in NL, since basically, you are saying you want to play for stacks.

[Antinome]

[ QUOTE ]
general rule, don't c/r in NL... it's usually almost always better to bet out. A c/r is very strong in NL, since basically, you are saying you want to play for stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly right. I would recommend limit refugees to try to play a few sessions without check-raising once. donkbet good. checkraise bad. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Of course, checkraising does have a purpose in NL, you can use it to trap a bet that commits the better, and you can use it to end hands where you probably have the best hand, but no draw... like bottom two in a multiway pot.

[lastcardcharlie]

[ QUOTE ]


Of course, checkraising does have a purpose in NL, you can use it to trap a bet that commits the better, and you can use it to end hands where you probably have the best hand, but no draw... like bottom two in a multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks a lot for this: I need to appreciate that c/r ing serves a very different purpose in NL than in limit.

But your second reason for c/r ing confuses me maybe. When would bottom pair likely be the best hand against a flop bet? - Against only either a bluff or a draw. In which case the c/r should be fairly big? Should it be big in the first case as well?

In other words: if you are going to c/r then c/r big?

[Milky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Of course, checkraising does have a purpose in NL, you can use it to trap a bet that commits the better, and you can use it to end hands where you probably have the best hand, but no draw... like bottom two in a multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks a lot for this: I need to appreciate that c/r ing serves a very different purpose in NL than in limit.

But your second reason for c/r ing confuses me maybe. When would bottom pair likely be the best hand against a flop bet? - Against only either a bluff or a draw. In which case the c/r should be fairly big? Should it be big in the first case as well?

In other words: if you are going to c/r then c/r big?

[/ QUOTE ]

You would be c/ring a reasonable amount, usually somewhere around 3x the person's bet (unless they made a min bet, then raise pot).

Also, you should VERY RARELY minraise. A lot of limit players seem to get caught up in this. If you're going to raise, make it a real raise. A minraise will get called by practically everything that's betting in the first place since the odds are so good. It's only good to use in very specific circumstances.

Also bottom two is good against any pair, draws, etc which a lot of people will bet.

[Waingro]

Here is an example of a hand you should not cr in NL:
You have: QT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Board: Q95 two tone no club
You often have the best hand but if your cr is called you are looking at an uncomfortable turn with 100 bb stacks. You typically only cr here vs a shorty who you don´t mind getting it in with or if you think he is going to auto bluff push over your raise. Don´t cr medium strength hands, unless you want to get all the money in the middle. I think this is the biggest difference.

[wslee00]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is an example of a hand you should not cr in NL:
You have: QT
Board: Q95 two tone no club

[/ QUOTE ]
this is a good example. In limit you probably would c/r against the pf raiser to 1) isolate, 2) you probably have the best hand 3) he will call with worse hands

Third reason is very important b/c in NL only a complete fish will call in this spot w/ a worse hand, and even then, I wouldn't be comfortable w/ the c/r.

[Waingro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is an example of a hand you should not cr in NL:
You have: QT
Board: Q95 two tone no club

[/ QUOTE ]
this is a good example. In limit you probably would c/r against the pf raiser to 1) isolate, 2) you probably have the best hand 3) he will call with worse hands

Third reason is very important b/c in NL only a complete fish will call in this spot w/ a worse hand, and even then, I wouldn't be comfortable w/ the c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh I think they call with worse some of the time. But what do we do on the turn? Did that card help villain? Were we already drawing dead? And the pot is already pretty big so giving a free card is suddenly a much bigger mistake. When it is decision time on the turn we risk making a big mistake in a bloated pot with a hand we definately don´t want to commit with vs most villains.