Hero call with second pair in Midnight Madness on FTP ($11)

[Will_Son]

Sorry. Having trouble with the hand converter so I used the raw file.

12 left. Average stack is 190k. Chip leader hasn't really gotten too out of line. He has a lot of chips.

Spot for a hero call? Comments on other streets? I think I should have bet the flop.

Full Tilt Poker Game #3723321223: Midnight Madness! (27877148), Table 27 - 4000/8000 Ante 1000 - No Limit Hold'em - 4:30:53 ET - 2007/10/01
Seat 2: Watchmetilt (174,784)
Seat 4: Sir_SHAWN (62,536)
Seat 5: j456 (83,534)
Seat 7: JksRbetter (165,886)
Seat 9: apt504 (536,510)
Watchmetilt antes 1,000
Sir_SHAWN antes 1,000
j456 antes 1,000
JksRbetter antes 1,000
apt504 antes 1,000
apt504 posts the small blind of 4,000
Watchmetilt posts the big blind of 8,000
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Watchmetilt [7c 4c]
Sir_SHAWN folds
JksRbetter: gg joker
j456 folds
JksRbetter folds
joker16636 (Observer): bad play...
apt504 has 15 seconds left to act
apt504 raises to 20,000
JksRbetter: yea but u played well till then
Watchmetilt calls 12,000
*** FLOP *** [2d 7s Jh]
apt504 checks
joker16636 (Observer): true
Watchmetilt checks
*** TURN *** [2d 7s Jh] [2s]
apt504 bets 25,000
Watchmetilt calls 25,000
*** RIVER *** [2d 7s Jh 2s] [5d]
apt504 bets 75,000
Watchmetilt ??

[tomek322]

tough spot... I think you should have raised the turn, if you were willing to put this many chips in.
Make it 65k on the turn and the hand becomes transparent.

Fold pre is my first instinct. As played, at the river I fold, I rather save the chips and have a stack that allows some play, rather than call and be pretty much crippled. Obv you fold the best hand sometimes.

[Darkens1]

I think that a fold pre is your best option here. I also agree that you need to either raise the turn or perhaps even donk the flop. The river is pretty close. It seems to me that he is either super strong here or just reponding to how weakly you have played the hand. He probably doesn't have just a jack as played. I think he has aces, kings or pocket jacks if he has you beat.

Its probably a fold but I would have taken the lead in the betting at some point

[BarryLyndon]

oh my goodness, please fold this preflop, there is absolutely no reason to play 74s suited for a pot more than 1/3rd your stack OOP. None.

I used to have this problem a lot in late stages of tournaments where I thought I had to play rags OOP. I'm starting to learn otherwise. I've also made only one table in the past 30+ tournaments. I suck.

On the flop, I fire 20K and then fold to anything. You might have the best hand now - 66, 55, 44 are all gonna be afraid of you because you flat called and could have a higher pair or a J. Those hands make up a sizeable portion of your call/betting range here. You also take control of the hand and can gauge a timing tell or something, which will help you decide whether to fire again on the turn.

When you raise the turn, you are looking at two scenarios - either you are dead to rights or you take the pot down then and there. I think it's a good play given the harmless turn.

On the river, checking is murder because if your opponent has any hand reading skills, he puts you on a weak hand and is gonna put you to the test. He can't give up the pot now with 80K in it and a good chance that he can get you to fold, that would be ridiculous. A lot of times near final tables, you will find that the level of guts on the flop is by far greater than preflop. Second shells are fired a lot more becuase pot sizes become too valuable to let go. That's why RR on the turn or lead the flop, and put your opponent to the test before he can to you. Though, in all reality, this hand is such an easy muck preflpo that discussing the rest of it is kinduv like discussing whether to neuter a cat after it [censored] around the block six times and has 15 kittens on the way.

Barry

[tomek322]

Barry,

We are the BB and in POS the whole way. BvB.

Edit: Now that I think about it, it's BvB, F it call, ace high no good, ship it.

[BarryLyndon]

lol, oops. I'm obviously burnt out and need to take a break (it's true):

judging from this, I definitely RR the turn.

Barry

[Will_Son]

The tournament went pretty late and I was playing kind of sloppy just due to tiredness. After I checked the flop (which is my biggest regret in the hand) and he led the turn, I decided I was going to call and insta-call a bet on the river, which I thought was going to be in the 40-50k range. Before I'd even noticed how big the bet was, I'd already clicked call and he took it with AJ.

Is the call with 47 suited preflop really bad? I'm in position and I have 12k to call for 37k. Not deep enough stacks to call?

[tomek322]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the call with 47 suited preflop really bad? I'm in position and I have 12k to call for 37k. Not deep enough stacks to call?

[/ QUOTE ]

For implied odds of flopping monsters, no not deep enough. Is the call terrible? As all things poker, it depends. If you were confident in knowing the villian and that you can outplay him after the flop(which the results don't seem to indicate) than calling is ok.

[BarryLyndon]

You should RR the turn here, I still think, if you have a read that villain is aggressive, because the pot is big enough + I think you have more than a 50% chance of taking it down based on the action. And if villain bets again if a 10, A, K, Q hits (or really otherwise), you're going to be clueless. Having said that, if you do RR and he comes over the top, you must fold. It's a tough spot and you really need a read to play 74s here + you just shouldn't bother playing it anyway because, as Tomek points out, the implied odds suck and you're not deep enough to start getting cute.

[Bond18]

The real moral of the story here is fold pre. Always.

On this kind of board on the river i never believe them and call.