Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO? - Page 2

JanelleBB7 · #11 09-26-2007, 09:27 PM

Example of fold equity?? My thought it when he just called me on the flop rather than re-raising is that he is on a flush draw / has two pair so he is weak... so when the turn isn't a heart I pushed my mid-trips hoping for a fold.. example of fold equity??

Full Tilt Poker - Pot Limit Omaha Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Janellebb7 (SB): $17.80
BB: $15.25
UTG: $89.95
UTG+1: $20.35
MP1: $75.25
MP2: $40.70
MP3: $33.45
CO: $97.30
BTN: $45.75

Preflop: Janellebb7 is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9 Players)
UTG calls $0.50, 3 folds, MP3 raises to $1.00, CO folds, BTN calls $1.00, Janellebb7 calls $0.75, BB calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.50

Flop: ($5) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 Players)
Janellebb7 bets $2.50, BB folds, UTG calls $2.50, 2 folds

Turn: ($10) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Janellebb7 bets $10.00, UTG folds
Uncalled bet of $10.00 returned to Janellebb7

Pot Size: $10.00 ($0.50 Rake)

jpg7n16 · #12 09-27-2007, 01:12 AM

No. Fold equity is only when you are certain he holds a weak, but better hand.

If he has two pair, you want him to call this bet. And he's not going to fold the nut straight.

So this example is not fold equity, but value betting on a very scary board.

Consider the following example:

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($322.85)
UTG ($140.45)
MP ($54.50)
Hero ($183.80)
SB ($62.90)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $3.5, 1 fold, Hero calls $3.50, 2 folds.

Flop: ($8.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets $5, Hero raises to $15, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $18.50

Here I may have the best hand, but if he has KKxx or AAxx, I have a draw + some fold equity so raising was IMO better than calling. He may fold a better hand to my raise.

Edit: Even here isn't a great example, because I may be ahead. But I couldn't find a hand in my hand history that has me raising a complete draw to fold a better hand.

pete fabrizio · #13 09-27-2007, 01:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No. Fold equity is only when you are certain he holds a weak, but better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

you lose.

jpg7n16 · #14 09-27-2007, 01:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No. Fold equity is only when you are certain he holds a weak, but better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

you lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone here is now dumber for having listened to you. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.

pete fabrizio · #15 09-27-2007, 02:09 AM

don't worry, i don't think anyone here listens to me. thank god.

Buzz · #16 09-27-2007, 02:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
don't worry, i don't think anyone here listens to me. thank god.

[/ QUOTE ]

I listen to you, Pete. (I just don't always agree).

Buzz [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

blah_blah · #17 09-27-2007, 03:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No. Fold equity is only when you are certain he holds a weak, but better hand.

If he has two pair, you want him to call this bet. And he's not going to fold the nut straight.

So this example is not fold equity, but value betting on a very scary board.

Consider the following example:

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($322.85)
UTG ($140.45)
MP ($54.50)
Hero ($183.80)
SB ($62.90)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $3.5, 1 fold, Hero calls $3.50, 2 folds.

Flop: ($8.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets $5, Hero raises to $15, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $18.50

Here I may have the best hand, but if he has KKxx or AAxx, I have a draw + some fold equity so raising was IMO better than calling. He may fold a better hand to my raise.

Edit: Even here isn't a great example, because I may be ahead. But I couldn't find a hand in my hand history that has me raising a complete draw to fold a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

no. fold equity is really more or less what the name suggests - it's the amount of time the villain folds, times his average EV over the range that he folds, times the size of the pot. In standard 2p2 parlance fold equity just refers to the amount of times that the villain folds, but there is the magical word 'equity' in there.

for example, an MTT example is when you have 25BB, and the button raises to 4xBB and you shove from the BB with AA, you have a lot of fold equity on your shove. this doesn't mean that shoving is right here, just that it's part of what you should be considering in your EV calculations.

SavageMiser · #18 09-27-2007, 03:16 AM

I'm confused by the responses in this thread that treat "fold equity" as some tool to be used during the play of a hand. I don't know, maybe it's getting confused with semi-bluffing.

We all talk about equity with our holdings versus an opponent's range on a given board. In general when we talk about that equity we're talking about a hot-and-cold situation, where there is no more betting. But when the betting is open, you can't strictly talk about absolute hand equities.

Simply, if you bet, you now have another way to win the hand: your opponent folds. That's your fold equity. Figuring out that number is complicated, and, as indicated above, it's usually an educated guess.

alavet · #19 09-27-2007, 03:40 AM

fold equity for me is just a percent of time when opponent folds. i also like the attached article, it explains about EV at all but not about FE imho.
usually we think about FE when we arent sure in our hand. so, say we have 40% to win, but with our bet he would fold, say 40% of time. so in 60% of time we win in 40% of time. and in 40% of time we win 100% of time. calculating this, we have 0.24+0.4 (64%) probabilty of winning.

applicating to omaha, we cant get our FE as much as Holdem if we play POT limit game. also we have 4 cards in omaha which generally makes fold a bit toughter.

DonCologne · #20 09-27-2007, 03:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No. Fold equity is only when you are certain he holds a weak, but better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong. The pot is 50$ and you push the rest of your 50$. Your equity is 60%. What do you want, that he folds in 50% of the cases or that he calls everytimes?

If he folds in 50% you will win 0.5*50$ + 0.5*(100$*0.6 - 50$*0.4) = 45$

If he calls 100% you will win 0.6*100$ - 0.4*50$ = 40$

I take the 45$ and I am happy if he folds as a 40/60 dog here.