River my Flush and madness breaks out

[f1sh4d1nner]

Call the river bet, but why did you play your weak fd like that on the flop?

[Lostit]

[ QUOTE ]
Call the river bet, but why did you play your weak fd like that on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you're talking about the call/re-raise line I took on the flop?

Basically the call from the villain one meant draw to me, and the minraise, from the other villain was something that I saw him do earlier when he was unsure of himself. Sensing weakness from both, and having the betting re-opened, I tried to make it look like I had a monster with a semi-bluff re-raise. I figured if the villain who had position on me called, he would be almost out, so I wasn't worried about later streets with him. I had position on the big stack and figured if he called I might be able to get a free card on the turn if I needed it.

In the end, I kept both in, built the pot, and got my free card. Never mind the fact that a little fold equity never hurt anyone.

[Lostit]

I ended up calling him, and he turned over 8c 10c and I lost. I had a feeling I was beat there also, but I was wondering if folding is ever proper in that spot. On an unpaired board, against someone that aggressive, especially as a PFR OOP, its hard to assume he was doing that with 2 clubs preflop, neither one an ace.

Thanks for the feedback.

[f1sh4d1nner]

amazing flop for him then, a bit surprised he didnt try to get it in on the flop

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call the river bet, but why did you play your weak fd like that on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you're talking about the call/re-raise line I took on the flop?

Basically the call from the villain one meant draw to me, and the minraise, from the other villain was something that I saw him do earlier when he was unsure of himself. Sensing weakness from both, and having the betting re-opened, I tried to make it look like I had a monster with a semi-bluff re-raise. I figured if the villain who had position on me called, he would be almost out, so I wasn't worried about later streets with him. I had position on the big stack and figured if he called I might be able to get a free card on the turn if I needed it.

In the end, I kept both in, built the pot, and got my free card. Never mind the fact that a little fold equity never hurt anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rationale for the call/reraise seems good, but I do have a couple of counter-observations:

(1) If the PFR has a draw, like you suspect, then that's not good news for you unless you can drive him out (I mean, the most obvious draw on the flop is the flush draw).

(2) Quite likely, you paid more on the flop for your "free" card than you would have had to on the turn.


Folding equity is great, if you have it, but you do need it.

Nevertheless, getting called twice on the flop isn't such a horrible result either provided you're the only one with a flush draw and no one has a set.

[bknollenberg]

i haven't read this entire thread, but i like your flop line a lot. however, i think you solidified your hand on the turn, as you would have bet out hard if you had a set or two pair given how draw heavy the board is.

as played, i think you 100% of the time have to push the turn. i did see the results, but i don't think it affects how i would play this. i think when both players flat call your raise on the flop, you can take them off a set, two pair, and an overpair. i have no idea what BB had that makes sense her besides Q10 or a heinously played QJ or KJ type hand (well Q10 is played heinously too). when they both flat call the flop i think you have to either give credit to one of the players for a better flush draw or at least give it strong consideration. with that said, pushing the turn here is perfect.

let me know what you all think, but here is my thinking behind the hand.

1) when they both flat call your raise on the flop, their range narrows drastically. unless these guys are total headcases, they aren't flat calling with 2 pair, an overpair, or a set. i can't see them calling with a pair really, as the only pairs that would be in the pot would be top pair or an overpair and their lines would have been different (fold / push).
2) when you hit the turn, as i said, i'd probably give you credit for the best hand here. i'm not saying put 100% weight on it, but i think given how it played out it was likely. you HAVE to push here. your stack isn't big enough compared to the pot to check, you destroy the set / 2 pair / overpair you were representing, and you're letting the draw at beating you, especially since it's likely your flush isn't good.
3) if one of the villains has totally played disgusting poker with a set or 2 pair here, that leaves one player that could have the flush draw, which lowers the probability one of them does. so you have redraw outs for sure.

yes, no?

[goblinhat]

I dont understand your raise on the flop at all really, your re raising after already a raise and a re raise. Ok now i have read ur reasoning for that, however i do still think its a mistake putting that much money in the pot when a call might give you little outs( as u said u thought the original raiser might be on a draw)and u also have to fold ( just i think?) if he pushes back on you with a set.
I think chances of a pure bluff are low in this situation despite checks on turn as so much money in pot and any flush draw has made it,(also means he is unlikely to push a set) despite making ur hand i think u can lay it down with the knowledge he is likely to have the flush and any flush beats u.

Wish this post was a little more fluent.