University of Florida student Tasered at Kerry forum

[Peter666]

Did somebody ask him to leave before they placed their hands on him? That would make a huge difference in his defense.

[PLOlover]

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Public or private gathering?

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the event here was a public gathering, just to be clear.

I mean when it is a matter of law that private restaurants are public places, then surely a public university is.

[PLOlover]

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No, of course not. But if you dont do what they ask you to do I have no problem with them forcing you to do whatever it is they asked you to do? Little convoluted, but makes the point.

If post event it is determined they did something wrong then you will get compensated somehow. And they will be punished.

Again, if you are robbing a bank and a cop tells you to put down your gun and you dont, are they justified in shooting you? I dont see the difference really.

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well I started the topic off by explaining this. the police can basically

a) coerce you, which is voluntary
b) order you, which is mandatory, and failure to comply will be met with force.

I mean if they stop you and ask you questions you can answer, but you do not have to answer, and the police cannnot use force to make you. however, they can coerce you and lie and say you will go to jail if you do not answer, even though they know they cannot do so. But if you fall for the lie and confess or whatever, the fact that you voluntarily answered means that you cannot take it back. miranda formalized it a bit, but many police departments have decided to get around miranda by having the suspect fully confess first (break him), then mirandize him and have him reconfess, which is perfectly legal.

so when the police asked him to cut his time (he was talkking for what, 30-40 seconds?) how was he supposed to know it was b) ? They should have been more clear.

[PLOlover]

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Did somebody ask him to leave before they placed their hands on him? That would make a huge difference in his defense.

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it seems to me they asked him but didn't tell him, which is why he was surprised.

I mean if I walk up to you and say, do mind stepping over here (you're in th middle of a conversation), and you say no and then go on talking, and the next thing you know I grab you, you are gonna be surprised. after I ask you, I should then again say, sir, step over here or I will have to place you under arrest/escort you out of the building.

[manbearpig]

PLO-

I completely understand what you are saying but I obviously think you are over simplifying the situation. The fact of the matter is that his intent was very obvious to everyone watching IMO. If you read the whole story it was clear he was trying to cause a scene.

He 1) skipped 30-40 people waiting in line to ask the questions, 2)refused to show ID when asked prior to asking the question, 3) asked his questions in an obviously inflammatory way.

Not to mention handing off the camera and telling his buddy to film this because he was going to cause a scene and his previous attention whoring seen on his website.

All prior to any police involvement. They had their eye on him long before they intervened.

[PLOlover]

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He 1) skipped 30-40 people waiting in line to ask the questions, 2)refused to show ID when asked prior to asking the question, 3) asked his questions in an obviously inflammatory way.

Not to mention handing off the camera and telling his buddy to film this because he was going to cause a scene and his previous attention whoring seen on his website.

All prior to any police involvement. They had their eye on him long before they intervened.

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if 1) and 2) then why was he allowed to stand at the microphone? if 1) and 2) then yeah I can see where he would expect trouble, just not sure that is true.

but 3), I totally disagree. I mean, what, you can't be vehement when asking a question? has it come to the point when you must kneel and say by your leave, mlord, and avert your eyes and tremble when speaking?

[PLOlover]

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He 1) skipped 30-40 people waiting in line to ask the questions, 2)refused to show ID when asked prior to asking the question, 3) asked his questions in an obviously inflammatory way.

Not to mention handing off the camera and telling his buddy to film this because he was going to cause a scene and his previous attention whoring seen on his website.

All prior to any police involvement. They had their eye on him long before they intervened.

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anyway up until now everyone was saying, hey, he asked the wrong questions, his tone was wrong, he took more than 10 seconds, etc. I think a lot of people disagree with that.

Now if your saying he jumped over a rope or something like a streaker during halftime at a ballgame, I mean, hey, nobody is gonna defend that.

but from what was in the published newspapers the school spokesman said that he was grabbed because he took too long to ask his question. it seems to me if he had jumped in they would have said so.

[manbearpig]

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[ QUOTE ]
He 1) skipped 30-40 people waiting in line to ask the questions, 2)refused to show ID when asked prior to asking the question, 3) asked his questions in an obviously inflammatory way.

Not to mention handing off the camera and telling his buddy to film this because he was going to cause a scene and his previous attention whoring seen on his website.

All prior to any police involvement. They had their eye on him long before they intervened.

[/ QUOTE ]

anyway up until now everyone was saying, hey, he asked the wrong questions, his tone was wrong, he took more than 10 seconds, etc. I think a lot of people disagree with that.

Now if your saying he jumped over a rope or something like a streaker during halftime at a ballgame, I mean, hey, nobody is gonna defend that.

but from what was in the published newspapers the school spokesman said that he was grabbed because he took too long to ask his question. it seems to me if he had jumped in they would have said so.

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I read about that happening in either this thread or another one or somewhere. From what I understand the Q&A session was actually over but this guy was being such a pain Kerry made an exception to let him ask a question. So if all of this is true he was on a short leash to start with and his tone/attitude put him over the edge.

Edit: Just saw where I read that. Ugh. It was just a posting from BCVCP(not right, but close) in BBV4L and is unconfirmed. He makes a point though that when they cut off the mike the rest of the room kind of cheers. I guess you could take from that that the kid had been a pain for awhile, or I guess what is more likely that is was a very pro Kerry crowd.

[TempusFugit]

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If you read the whole story it was clear he was trying to cause a scene.


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That's certainly true. Yet, it still does not justify how the campus cops reacted.

See it like this: every public demonstration is aimed at "causing a scene" - i.e. to get maximum attention. Yet there's a right to demonstrate.

I figure that authorities in Russia use a very similar line of argument to yours to smack down the opposition movement. I.e. "police asked them not to demonstrate" -> "they still demonstrate" -> "ok, let's arrest them"

[Money2Burn]

This article about the UF taser policy is pretty good.

Taser Article

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The department's 18-page use of force policy is similar to others around the state, including the Orlando Police Department and Orange County Sheriff's Office. In situations where a person is displaying "active physical resistance" -- evasive movements or pushing or pulling away from an officer -- use of a baton, chemical spray or Taser is permitted

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I think this makes it pretty obvious that the officers were well within appropriate operating procedure.

If you have a problem with it still then you should be against the policy not the officers.