Please help me settle an argument - 400NL hand

[wdead]

I like raising vs villains likely range and in a vacuum but i still say if villain is gonna be 2 barreling alot a call is better.

[Nielsio]

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Now i have to admit he's a very successful 400NL player

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I don't believe this. graph or ban.

[wdead]

I hope Im not beating a dead horse, but if you were villain, and OP raised the flop, what is the WORST hand you would call with?

[MikeyPatriot]

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Your mate is dumb.

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Why are you guys even discussing this?

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Good to see you've contributed to this thread.

[Rainclouds]

Waiting for the turn for the sake of better equity is only reasonable if villain can have a combodraw (11+ outs) and you figure you are flipping on the flop and you are sure you can still get it in on the turn. With a flopped flush, there is no combodraw possible and villain has at most 7 outs to improve.

However, with half the deck being either scare cards or action killers, you will be missing out on a lot of value if you wait for a good turn; it simply doesn't outweigh the small gain in equity if you happen to get a safe turn.

The only argument in favor of calling the turn is if you have a strong read that villain
1) is FOS on the flop
2) folds to a raise
3) fires the turn with air if called

But that still doesn't outweigh the value you lose by not raising the flop and it's not even close.

[UK Raz]

Wow lots of good replies, thanks. It sounds like im not going mad after all. Ive calmed down now ive slept on it, but the worst thing about the hand wasnt the beat itself, it was my mates reaction to it. Right or wrong all he succeeded in doing was to put me on tilt. Hopefully we both learn something from it.

[corsakh]

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Your mate is dumb.

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Why are you guys even discussing this?

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Its not really two sided. Flatting in position to wait for a turn to brick is good when your a coinflip and dont have any FE. Your a huge favorite in this hand, so waiting for the turn is just burning moneys. If a club comes, your either screwed or not getting a dime out of him. This is just soooo bad, not funny [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[awjpoker]

I go with the get it all in on the flop, although you say he will fire again he knows he has two cards to hit his flush on the flop giving him reasonable odd's (in his mind) to go with the hand, once it gets to the turn and he has missed he is far less likely to get it all in i would guess. In that scenario you want all the money in as a favourite so i think waiting is the best play. I also Play Omaha high and in that game waiting for the turn is often a better option as with two cards to come people have so many outs you want to see if the board pairs etc before commiting. In Hold'em the number of outs villian has is usually far less.

[Wolfram]

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Your mate is dumb.

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Why are you guys even discussing this?

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This is such a basic spot it's not even funny. You raise here because you know that any overpair with a decent club is going all-in, and also most overpairs w/no club will think you are fos and repush.

The only merit to flatting is that it gives a whiffed hand a chance to 2nd barrel. But that value is totally offset by the change that another club comes along that will totally kill your action, or give villain the winning hand, or an ace pops and red Queens gets scared etc etc.

To finally shut your friend up, point out to him that you played the hand FTOP perfect. If the hands were face up then your play is obviously optimal. You give villain the maximum room to make a mistake, and he did. His mistake costs him about $240 which is a huge edge for you.

[bubaloo]