Out of position with kings against a whiner

[BrassMonkey]

Villian is known on this board, but I won't name names. He whines a lot about poker being rigged and "bad beats". Also, he seems spewy.

Do you ever go for this double donking move with a big hand out of position against the right player? I was trying to carefully control the number of bets that went in on the turn and river here...

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

[jba]

what is your reasoning for betting the turn. do you think he could have 99 or JJ here and check behind? I think he's going to bet everything that you want to call and will raise sets and AA.

[yourface]

on the turn,

Hand 0: 62.159% { KdKh }
Hand 1: 37.841% { TT+, 88 }

so it looks like a 3bet is bad unless he is spewing with AT, in which case we should 3bet.

btw according to some stoving I did villain shouldn't be raising less than KK on the turn if he puts us on [88+ A8s] even if we only 3bet 88 TT AA

the river b/c is bad. a check behind is very unlikely

[BrassMonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
what is your reasoning for betting the turn. do you think he could have 99 or JJ here and check behind? I think he's going to bet everything that you want to call and will raise sets and AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm assuming you meant, "what is your reasoning for betting the river".

Yea, I guess I felt that three-betting the turn was giving too much action, especially since I can never find a fold if he caps, yet just check/calling the river was way too weak with such a strong holding. I was looking for a good middle ground, and found the double donk. I suppose, though, that I have to fold the river if I'm going to make this move. Since I can't, I guess that check/calling is better.

[Sheakspeer]

Seems ok, but I really don't think he's checking a weaker hand on the river after raising us on the turn so our bet costs us when it's a mistake, and wins us one bet when we're ahead, which we get anyway by check/calling the river.

The turn doesn't seem like a fsd raise + we've already shown an enormous amount of strength + he'll bet Q Q / J J on the river anyway + our line does not seem like a set for his A A so he'll probably raise the river when we bet (I mean, we can't be b/3 betting cuz nobody does that at this level) = c/c river

[Absolution]

I thought for a second this was going to be a hand against me, but I don't play in that game and my chat is banned. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The one reason you might put more bets into this pot besides the standard call down is that you think he might not believe you have a pair on that paired board and he's overplaying ATs. His most likely hand though is TT. You said he at least studies the game so I'm not ready to assume he's spewing here. The T really isn't a scare card. Don't try and exercise pot control in limit hold'em either. Just make the read and make the best play based on that. I just don't think you have enough of read on this guy to know how to respond to further pressure so I just call down. If he makes a free showdown raise here with ATs then you have a read for next time this situation comes up.

[Hamlet]

I think it seems reasonable to me. The turn raise could come from a large number of hands you beat. Once you get raised on the river, I'm not enthused with your hand, but it still beats some of his likely range.

After the river raise, what do you put him on? I would say AA-TT, 88, and possibly something like AKs that missed.

I like it. No reason to lay this hand down, and no reason to 3-bet. Bet-call, bet-call.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what is your reasoning for betting the turn. do you think he could have 99 or JJ here and check behind? I think he's going to bet everything that you want to call and will raise sets and AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm assuming you meant, "what is your reasoning for betting the river".

Yea, I guess I felt that three-betting the turn was giving too much action, especially since I can never find a fold if he caps, yet just check/calling the river was way too weak with such a strong holding. I was looking for a good middle ground, and found the double donk. I suppose, though, that I have to fold the river if I'm going to make this move. Since I can't, I guess that check/calling is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

if two bets go in on the river you lose. almost all hands that raise the turn are betting the river unless he has something retardo like 99. check/call is fine.

[ResidentParanoid]

Unless you have some laser read on the guy, you can't be good after the river raise. I suppose "spewy" is a reason to call the river raise, but I'm not optimistic. As you mention, if you can't pitch it on the river raise, a c/c is better.

[ZOMG_RIGGED!]

AMC?