6/12 game- Help with this hand

[macktyson]

6-12 game- sat evening, half loose and half solid players. Ive played mostly tight. Villan is new aggro player to table. LP players were both new and loose as well.

Villan raises from EP, I call with 44, 2 LP also call as well as BB. 60 Pot

Flop Q82- two diamonds

BB checks Villan bets, I raise, 2 LP both cold call, BB folds and Villan reraises. Back to me with 114 in pot. I fold. Both LP both call.

Turn 4 clubs Villan bets Both LP call
River 3 clubs Villan bets LP fold other calls

Villan AQ top pair
LP Q3 two pair on river
Pot =186

My question is should I have raised, folded or called preflop?

Should I have raised, folded or called on the flop?

Was my fold on the flop after I raised wrong?

My opinion is I just called pre-flop because I was hoping to hit a set on flop and win big pot and if I miss I fold.
Once i saw flop I thought Villan could have missed so I raised to isolate but then both late position players both cold called and then Villan reraised so I felt I was either drawing dead or to just 1 out, the non-diamond 4...However after I folded and hand was over I told everyone I had the 44 and everyone could not believe i would fold the flop for just 1 more bet including the dealer who told me that was an easy call. If I do call, I turn my set and the pot would have been over 250

Any opinions?

[BigBadBabar]

pf is okay only if you know a lot of guys are gonna come in behind, so we can't help you with that. when in doubt it's a fold.

flop i just fold. you're in early position with a lot of guys behind you to act; there's almost zero chance you have the best hand or will get everyone to fold.

as for folding for 1 more back to you, it's just a math question. figure you have 2 outs, so you need to be getting 20:1 or call it 17 or 18:1 to be safe for implied odds. are you getting near that?

[shane88888]

Coldcall pre-flop is fine if this is anything like a typical 6/12 game.

You should have folded the flop.

After you raised, your fold was really, really bad.

On a mildly connected, two-of-a-suit board, you're probably never going to isolate in a live game.

Don't focus on what you would have, could have won. Folding any PP on the flop when getting over 20:1 is usually really, really bad.

[Lanzalot]

Fold preflop almost always. Like 98% of the time. Table situations may arise where loose passives are cold-calling every raise and that can change things, but your read on the table and the late positions players in particular would have to be very accurate and they would have to play very badly.

Fold the flop. Raising there seems kinda spewy. Your probably way behind.

Folding after it's raised is correct. Against all but the most tricky of players the reraise means your against AA, KK, QQ, AQ, KQ, or at least two high diamonds. So your playing to hit your two set outs and it wouldn't quite be worth it.

When you post next time, express pot size in terms of # of bets. Makes things easier.

[BigBadBabar]

shane, what odds is he getting on the flop after it's one more back to him?

[macktyson]

5 BB pre-flop
when it comes back to me after the raise-it was 9 BB+ 5 BB= 14 BB with 2 more implied BB for a total of 16 BB

[Lanzalot]

He's getting 19:1, I believe. Odds of hitting one of his two set cards on the turn are 45:2 or 22.5-1. But I think you have to discount your two outs here. The two LP players cold-called his raise, raising the inference of flush draws, especially as there aren't too many other draws available. If they aren't on flush draws, OP could hit hit either of the fours on the turn, one of which is a diamond, and see another [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] come on the river or see a straight fill when the LPs have JT, T9 or J9. I think 1.5 outs is a little more accurate here and that case he needs implied odds of greater than 30 1/3-1 to show a profit. Closer decision than it first seemed, I'll admit, but folding is still the best move to my way of thinking.

[shane88888]

My math stinks. It's 19:1 if $114 in the pot is correct.

[shane88888]

By the action given I count:

Ten sb pre-flop (assuming $3 rake)
Nine sb post-flop

So, 19:1. I still think this is an easy, easy call.

I don't worry about the implied odds here. In a live game, you can see nine big bets on the turn before anyone would ever suspect you hold a set.

Also, Lanzalot, I think you're giving our villains way too much credit on the cold-calls. This is a live game; they are usually live ones. A-rag of spades is just as likely a holding as x[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]y[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Plus we'd have a redraw to a boat (or quads).

[KenProspero]

I'm not sure I follow your explanation, completely, but here goes.

PF -- probably fold. However, if you've been seeing 5-6 seeing almost every flop, calling is ok. Not worth raising, since this is a flop or drop hand.

Flop -- As I said it's flop or drop. I'm folding.

Flop as Played. The pot is now getting interesting. Is one of your 4s the 4 of diamonds? If so, I think you I think you have implied odds to call. If not, you have to discount the 4d of an out, and it becomes a closer call. My guess is I'd call it anyway, but that may be a leak in my game.

Dealer telling you that it's a bad fold -- unless you've seen the dealer play, and know that he's a better player than you, ignore it. I'm not saying he's wrong, just that when I've sat down at the table with dealers, some of them are ok, some are REALLY terrible. So, take any advice you get here with a grain of salt.