20/40 borg .. all-in maniac

[Penner]

Maniac is in the BB. I’m in middle position with a TAG to my immediate left.

After one limper, I raise w/ JJ. The TAG 3 bets. A fish to his left cold calls and the maniac calls.

The flop comes J55, two spades.

We all check to the 3- better, who bets. The maniac raises, I 3 bet and the Tag caps it.

The turn brings a red three. The maniac pushes all-in for $35.

I decided I had to raise … with the TAG’s overpair and the fish most likely drawing dead to the flush, I might get both over calls because the maniac was all in.

I took some heat from a few friends for the raise. What do you think?

[Dagger78]

You need to raise here I think.

This could easily be seen by the TAG as an effort to push his overpair out of the hand and make your pair good against the maniac. He can't/shouldn't fold his overpair here.

Also the fish will pay two Big to draw dead on the turn no problem.

[TiK]

If you're that certain of TAG's being in possession of an overpair and if you're certain that he's a TAG, if you just call the maniac's all-in bet, TAG will raise with his overpair, so why not let him do the raising? So you just call maniac's bet and then 3-bet when it comes back around to you. At this point, everyone will have to call. Then bet the river.

So basically, if you think you're certain that you can get people to put in 3-bets on the turn (i.e. TAG will raise), then just call the all-in then 3-bet. All other situations, raise.

[gameoverjc]

[ QUOTE ]

After one limper, I raise w/ JJ. The TAG 3 bets. A fish to his left cold calls and the maniac calls.

The flop comes J55, two spades.

We all check to the 3- better, who bets. The maniac raises, I 3 bet and the Tag caps it.

The turn brings a red three. The maniac pushes all-in for $35.

I decided I had to raise … with the TAG’s overpair and the fish most likely drawing dead to the flush, I might get both over calls because the maniac was all in.

I took some heat from a few friends for the raise. What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

First off I think you should remove 'I had to' from your vocabulary when describing any poker hand ever. This is bad habit forming, and nothing in poker you are forced to do.

Secondly, you just described the hand perfectly. TAG def has overpair, fish drawing dead to a flush, maniac being a maniac, this is perfect to just call the turn and do your best to bemoan your bad luck with ajax without saying anything. Then 3 town it.

2 betting his all in then betting the river makes it very easy for a TAG to fold an overpair. I know in heat of the moment this seems like an auto 2 bet, but if you think it out, this is what will make you those extra 2-4bb's which are veddy niiice.

[ssmallz]

I agree w/the others, call and c/r the turn, the tag is raising here 100% of the time. Also, don't bemoan your play. Toss your chips in rythem so as not to tip off tag. When I see a player bemoan like that it makes me very wary and when he 3 bets, I can turbo muck my hand.

[Double Ice]

At borgata they let you make it $80 over a $35 all in on the turn, playing 20/40 limit? I am pretty sure the rule is that if the raise in limit is not 100%, then you can only "raise" to the complete bet ($40.) Anyone want to clarify this for me?

[ScottHoward v3.1]

[ QUOTE ]
At borgata they let you make it $80 over a $35 all in on the turn, playing 20/40 limit? I am pretty sure the rule is that if the raise in limit is not 100%, then you can only "raise" to the complete bet ($40.) Anyone want to clarify this for me?

[/ QUOTE ]
if the bet should be $40, and somebody bets $35 all in, the options are fold, call, or raise to $75. $35 is already a complete bet because its at least half of $40.

[DeuceKicker]

I like raising. It looks very much like you're using the other guy's decision to felt himself as protection. If he weren't all-in, I'd like an attempted call-3bet.

If we're assuming the TAG will raise this 100%, he should be 3-betting 99%, allowing us to 4-bet.

A call/3-bet is likely to get the TAG to fold the river if he doesn't hit his two-outer, so you get extra 3BB from him--four at most.

If you raise/4-bet (no cap, but assume he doesn't 5-bet) he may fold the river but at least you got an extra 4BB from him--five at most if he decides to call the river.

[gameoverjc]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree w/the others, call and c/r the turn, the tag is raising here 100% of the time. Also, don't bemoan your play. Toss your chips in rythem so as not to tip off tag. When I see a player bemoan like that it makes me very wary and when he 3 bets, I can turbo muck my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's an expression. And I stated not to say anything.

And if hero raises at every chance presented, I'm pretty sure any TAG, apart from being completely braindead, would just call with AA/KK and fold on river UI. Esp on a 55J3 board.

[DeuceKicker]

A TAG is much more likely to call the river if you raise the turn than if you call then 3-bet.

Bottom line is that if TAG is already getting suspicious of JJ (or AA if he has KK) you're not getting much out of him either way. He has position, so he may be content to let you do the betting, and only bet if checked to, figuring one bet is going in on the turn and river either way.

If he still isn't convinced he's beat (and so far how can he put you on exactly JJ?), a 2-bet is very well disguised and presents the opportunity to 4-bet the turn and still possibly be paid off for another bet on the river "because the pot is so big."