JJ in sb versus BelowAbove

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raising sucks for obvious reason of Below is only calling with a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
lolololololololololololol

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
great input in this thread A+

[/ QUOTE ]

[ASPoker8]

[ QUOTE ]
guys

i really think theres a metagame factor. "sending a message" to below we cant be pushed around i think is very important.

[/ QUOTE ]

disagree

[ZJ123]

still think 4 betting is a horrible spew, calling is ok though.

[hard2tel]

I hate 4-betting here. Call and check/call flop...c/c or c/r turn..etc. If u suck, call for set value or something. Plz dont fold or raise, both are so stupid this deep imo..unless u two had history which apparantly u dont.

[registrar]

Explain why it's spew. Seems fine to me. Against a random, obviously calling is better.

[whynot?]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
guys

i really think theres a metagame factor. "sending a message" to below we cant be pushed around i think is very important.

[/ QUOTE ]



disagree

[/ QUOTE ]

asp, all - why is metagame unimportant here or you dont think it will make a difference? against a lag like BA, I think showing you have the balls early to push back is very important or you'll be run over by him all game. now granted he may still attempt to do that, but he is like all of us a very read dependent player - ba will be less likely to attempt to abuse you if you show backbone - no? (admittedly dont have much time with him but have seens some of his vids where he says as much)

wn

[LuckyLloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
guys

i really think theres a metagame factor. "sending a message" to below we cant be pushed around i think is very important.

[/ QUOTE ]



disagree

[/ QUOTE ]

asp, all - why is metagame unimportant here or you dont think it will make a difference? against a lag like BA, I think showing you have the balls early to push back is very important or you'll be run over by him all game. now granted he may still attempt to do that, but he is like all of us a very read dependent player - ba will be less likely to attempt to abuse you if you show backbone - no? (admittedly dont have much time with him but have seens some of his vids where he says as much)

wn

[/ QUOTE ]

The importance of meta - game pales in significance to the neccesity of making the play with the highest cEV. Particularly in an online tournament where you may reasonably go for long stretches (like 50 toruneys at the same level) without sitting at the same table as him again. And each time you sit, you may only end up playing a relatively small number of actual hands directly against him.

If this guy was a regular multi - tabler at our cash game level and we were logging large quantities of hands against him on a weekly basis - then we probably should start becoming highly concious of mixing things up against him; and doing some wierd stuff in specific spots to keep him guessing.


As such, the important thing to focus on here is what the best line is. We should be - raising to 1200 if we think that is the play that carries the most EV - not because we want to show him how elongated our penis is.

I probably call the 420 myself here pre, then get very ignorant and stubborn post - flop and never fold a ton of boards no matter what he does.

By the way OP - you indicated that the concensus on the other board was for folding? Where you just referencing that discussion as a scene setter for this thread, or did such a discussion and conclusion actually take place? As I would be interesting to hear some of the reasoning behind folding. I assume it's awful logic - as I think foolding here and not playing purely for set value at the very least would be horrendous.

[tsarast]

lol at 4betting pre... BA might be crazy lag, but i agree with all who say this 4bet allows him to play perfectly for stacks. With no history, BA will play AA, KK, QQ, AK, that's it. way to turn JJ into a bluff.

Way better is to call and CRAI most flops, imho.

[whynot?]

it was on pxf and as i look back it was a mix between flatting and folding. the general consensus on folding was that in essence its a small mistake early versus a potentially large mistake of playing for your stack when you may be dominated

as i said in op this was not my hand and i disagree - still think raising makes sense

i do get your point on the metagame, but i do think it can be a tie breaker. who knows how long you'll play with BA at this table, but having him have a bit of respect for you can save a bunch of chips over the course of a tourney. i agree its not the deciding factor, but i think discounting it is a mistake

[benlj21]

I'd just like to say that I thoroughly enjoyed the discussion in this thread. I know what it feels like to be a LAG who is paranoid of people playing back light, but I've never heard anyone put it into words. The line that now seems optimal is very non-standard. This is just a great poker hand to think about, it really shows the "skill" side of the game. Anyway, nice thread.