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#11
09-12-2007, 03:49 PM
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Re: Rivered Straight Line Check
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I don't like pre...not so sure about flop either. I think i check behind flop b/c there are so many hands (mostly draws) that BB can c/r, and i don't think this hand can take the heat. His turn bet is so lame it's either a flush or something like AdTx. Folding the turn to a 1/4 pot bet might be kinda weak here...but this is the way some players bet their big hands. What are u thinking when u call the turn? You're obv behind now. I don't think your redraw to a diamond is good very often, trips are no good...and if you don't have any implied odds when u hit your gutshot. I'd fold preflop...as played prob check behind on flop. As played fold turn...easy call on river. [/ QUOTE ] I think a fold preflop is a little bit too tight. Its folded around to you in mid position and you have a deep stack and a decent hand to play with your stack. You got exactly what you wanted after you raised, position and 1 opponent to the flop. Checking behind on the flop is bad imo. If you were to check behind when you thought your opponent is drawing, you are making a big mistake. You want your opponent to make a mistake by calling without proper odds. checking behind gives a free card to beat you. Yes he can checkraise you but you cant play poker scared like this. when you play scared and think that when you bet you will always be checkraised off your hand, you will never succeed in poker. Aggression is a huge factor in every poker players success. Hero has TPGK and should get some value out of the hand. The turn bet was odd. Depending on your read i would flat call or raise. You cant fold for such a small bet. The river bet seemed like a blocking bet. Maybe he had TP also and was scared of being bet off his hand. If villian played his flush like this, i would definitly take a note on this odd play. If villian did have a flush he didnt get as much value on his hand as he could have. I think your play was fine if you didnt have a read on villian. [/ QUOTE ] I think that stealing the blinds is exactly what OP wanted when he raised here, but 1 caller is not a bad result. I'm not advocating checking the flop b/c i'm playing "scared poker." Scared poker would be checking behing with AJ, which i obv wouldn't do. We have a good hand TPGK, and a flop texture that makes it pretty easy for a semi-bluff c/r. You didn't even address your action if you got c/r'd...do u call? When u get c/r'd...is it AJ;KJ;set; or a draw??? Now you're playing for a big pot with TPGK and u have no idea where you're at. Do u realize that if u are c/r'd...you're letting BB put you in a really bad spot...you have a tough decision and no additional info on his range. I advocated a check b/c we have a good hand, and it would suck to have to dump it to a c/r. If you're going to check this type of flop when u miss, you're also going to have to check with some decent but not super strong hands as well. This has noting to do with being "aggressive" (but thx for the tip regarding the relationship btwn aggression and poker success...lol.) I'm saying that controlling the pot size and not folding the best hand is worth the risk of giving a free card here. I realize that a check (with a good made hand) for pot control usually occurs on the turn, but this is a situation where "protecting your hand" can be very costly. Aggression is a key component to the success of any NLHE player, but acting aggressively before you think about variables such as your opponents calling and c/r'ing ranges along with your subsequent actions (on this and future streets) when called or raised, is going to result in you winning small pots and losing large ones. 
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#12
09-12-2007, 03:53 PM
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Re: Rivered Straight Line Check
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I don't like pre...not so sure about flop either. I think i check behind flop b/c there are so many hands (mostly draws) that BB can c/r, and i don't think this hand can take the heat. His turn bet is so lame it's either a flush or something like AdTx. Folding the turn to a 1/4 pot bet might be kinda weak here...but this is the way some players bet their big hands. What are u thinking when u call the turn? You're obv behind now. I don't think your redraw to a diamond is good very often, trips are no good...and if you don't have any implied odds when u hit your gutshot. I'd fold preflop...as played prob check behind on flop. As played fold turn...easy call on river. [/ QUOTE ] I think a fold preflop is a little bit too tight. Its folded around to you in mid position and you have a deep stack and a decent hand to play with your stack. You got exactly what you wanted after you raised, position and 1 opponent to the flop. Checking behind on the flop is bad imo. If you were to check behind when you thought your opponent is drawing, you are making a big mistake. You want your opponent to make a mistake by calling without proper odds. checking behind gives a free card to beat you. Yes he can checkraise you but you cant play poker scared like this. when you play scared and think that when you bet you will always be checkraised off your hand, you will never succeed in poker. Aggression is a huge factor in every poker players success. Hero has TPGK and should get some value out of the hand. The turn bet was odd. Depending on your read i would flat call or raise. You cant fold for such a small bet. The river bet seemed like a blocking bet. Maybe he had TP also and was scared of being bet off his hand. If villian played his flush like this, i would definitly take a note on this odd play. If villian did have a flush he didnt get as much value on his hand as he could have. I think your play was fine if you didnt have a read on villian. [/ QUOTE ] I think that stealing the blinds is exactly what OP wanted when he raised here, but 1 caller is not a bad result. I'm not advocating checking the flop b/c i'm playing "scared poker." Scared poker would be checking behing with AJ, which i obv wouldn't do. We have a good hand TPGK, and a flop texture that makes it pretty easy for a semi-bluff c/r. You didn't even address your action if you got c/r'd...do u call? When u get c/r'd...is it AJ;KJ;set; or a draw??? Now you're playing for a big pot with TPGK and u have no idea where you're at. Do u realize that if u are c/r'd...you're letting BB put you in a really bad spot...you have a tough decision and no additional info on his range. I advocated a check b/c we have a good hand, and it would suck to have to dump it to a c/r. If you're going to check this type of flop when u miss, you're also going to have to check with some decent but not super strong hands as well. This has noting to do with being "aggressive" (but thx for the tip regarding the relationship btwn aggression and poker success...lol.) I'm saying that controlling the pot size and not folding the best hand is worth the risk of giving a free card here. I realize that a check (with a good made hand) for pot control usually occurs on the turn, but this is a situation where "protecting your hand" can be very costly. Aggression is a key component to the success of any NLHE player, but acting aggressively before you think about variables such as your opponents calling and c/r'ing ranges along with your subsequent actions (on this and future streets) when called or raised, is going to result in you winning small pots and losing large ones. [/ QUOTE ] yeah, but it's a small stakes tournament and you are playing against passive opponents, so if you feel you are going to get called by worse draws a good percent of the time and that you are getting CRed or getting a fold a much better percent (which is the case), I think leading the flop here is fine. I see your point, but we're talking about a $4 tournament here. And yeah, I read Strasser's post about playing hands the best way as opposed to thinking like a $5 player to beat $5 players, but villain is most likely passive here, he's OOP, and yes, you have a plan if he CRs (fold), so betting is OK. Barry
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#13
09-12-2007, 04:33 PM
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Re: Rivered Straight Line Check
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I don't like pre...not so sure about flop either. I think i check behind flop b/c there are so many hands (mostly draws) that BB can c/r, and i don't think this hand can take the heat. His turn bet is so lame it's either a flush or something like AdTx. Folding the turn to a 1/4 pot bet might be kinda weak here...but this is the way some players bet their big hands. What are u thinking when u call the turn? You're obv behind now. I don't think your redraw to a diamond is good very often, trips are no good...and if you don't have any implied odds when u hit your gutshot. I'd fold preflop...as played prob check behind on flop. As played fold turn...easy call on river. [/ QUOTE ] I think a fold preflop is a little bit too tight. Its folded around to you in mid position and you have a deep stack and a decent hand to play with your stack. You got exactly what you wanted after you raised, position and 1 opponent to the flop. Checking behind on the flop is bad imo. If you were to check behind when you thought your opponent is drawing, you are making a big mistake. You want your opponent to make a mistake by calling without proper odds. checking behind gives a free card to beat you. Yes he can checkraise you but you cant play poker scared like this. when you play scared and think that when you bet you will always be checkraised off your hand, you will never succeed in poker. Aggression is a huge factor in every poker players success. Hero has TPGK and should get some value out of the hand. The turn bet was odd. Depending on your read i would flat call or raise. You cant fold for such a small bet. The river bet seemed like a blocking bet. Maybe he had TP also and was scared of being bet off his hand. If villian played his flush like this, i would definitly take a note on this odd play. If villian did have a flush he didnt get as much value on his hand as he could have. I think your play was fine if you didnt have a read on villian. [/ QUOTE ] I think that stealing the blinds is exactly what OP wanted when he raised here, but 1 caller is not a bad result. I'm not advocating checking the flop b/c i'm playing "scared poker." Scared poker would be checking behing with AJ, which i obv wouldn't do. We have a good hand TPGK, and a flop texture that makes it pretty easy for a semi-bluff c/r. You didn't even address your action if you got c/r'd...do u call? When u get c/r'd...is it AJ;KJ;set; or a draw??? Now you're playing for a big pot with TPGK and u have no idea where you're at. Do u realize that if u are c/r'd...you're letting BB put you in a really bad spot...you have a tough decision and no additional info on his range. I advocated a check b/c we have a good hand, and it would suck to have to dump it to a c/r. If you're going to check this type of flop when u miss, you're also going to have to check with some decent but not super strong hands as well. This has noting to do with being "aggressive" (but thx for the tip regarding the relationship btwn aggression and poker success...lol.) I'm saying that controlling the pot size and not folding the best hand is worth the risk of giving a free card here. I realize that a check (with a good made hand) for pot control usually occurs on the turn, but this is a situation where "protecting your hand" can be very costly. Aggression is a key component to the success of any NLHE player, but acting aggressively before you think about variables such as your opponents calling and c/r'ing ranges along with your subsequent actions (on this and future streets) when called or raised, is going to result in you winning small pots and losing large ones. [/ QUOTE ] yeah, but it's a small stakes tournament and you are playing against passive opponents, so if you feel you are going to get called by worse draws a good percent of the time and that you are getting CRed or getting a fold a much better percent (which is the case), I think leading the flop here is fine. I see your point, but we're talking about a $4 tournament here. And yeah, I read Strasser's post about playing hands the best way as opposed to thinking like a $5 player to beat $5 players, but villain is most likely passive here, he's OOP, and yes, you have a plan if he CRs (fold), so betting is OK. Barry [/ QUOTE ] I don't think that betting this flop, for the reasons/reads that you have given is bad...but the mentality of the other poster, "i have TP bet...anything else is weak/scared" that i was replying to is (trying to be nice here)..."unenlightened."
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#14
09-12-2007, 04:55 PM
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Re: Rivered Straight Line Check
[ QUOTE ]
O rly? How's making a small turn bet and a ridiculously small river bet taking someone to valuetown? Villain didn't even take Hero halfway there... I, and I guess Hero too, would've called a larger river bet. [/ QUOTE ] I guess I was wrong in assuming he'd fold to a larger Turn and River Bet....how large would that bet need to be to fold you out Rocco?....or could he get you off the hand? Just curious. [ QUOTE ] Hero: You played it fine, of course. Can't muck against those tiny bets. [/ QUOTE ] This is exactly my point....maybe my wording was subpar, but how in the heck can anybody fold to a couple of weenie bets like this.
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#15
09-12-2007, 05:54 PM
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Re: Rivered Straight Line Check
Make some retarded size raise to like 5K on the river...when he bets 10% of the pot there he's playing the board 95% of the time
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#16
09-12-2007, 08:20 PM
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Re: Rivered Straight Line Check
[ QUOTE ]
Make some retarded size raise to like 5K on the river...when he bets 10% of the pot there he's playing the board 95% of the time [/ QUOTE ] Just out of curiosity, do you have HHs to back this up? I always think about doing this but default to calling because I don't find raising profitable here. Barry
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