Having a belief

[Phil153]

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Rather, beliefs are an emergent type of experience that manifests itself in response to a probe.

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Do people actually understand what this means, and are disagreeing nonetheless, or has this gone over most people's heads? I can't decide.

[bunny]

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Rather, beliefs are an emergent type of experience that manifests itself in response to a probe.

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Do people actually understand what this means, and are disagreeing nonetheless, or has this gone over most people's heads? I can't decide.

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I think I'm disagreeing - though concede it could well have passed me by.

I think it's meaningful to speak of a belief I have now which I havent yet been probed on. I'm on the verge of abandoning that view but it seems to mean something to me currently.

[bunny]

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I dont think there is one spot the belief is stored either (I think our memory and other cognitive functions are decidedly different from a phonograph or even a computer) however I dont think that is necessary for the definition of belief I am waving in the direction of.

I think the tendency to act in a certain way is present before you are asked the question. If you and I are both going to answer yes to "Do you think vertebrates all share one common ancestor?" then I think we have something in common, even before we are asked.

I think what we have in common is the belief that vertebrates all share one common ancestor. The fact we havent yet gone through the process of considering the meaning of the question, consulting our past experiences, biases and other "propensities to answer yes" doesnt alter that.

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We may both answer 'yes' last sunday morning. Events occur during the week and we have no other thoughts on the matter. Then when questioned this sunday morning you still answer yes but I answer no.
When did my belief change?

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This is an objection you have raised in a number of separate discussions and I still struggle to see the problem.

I cant evaluate when the belief changed (it would be the first instant you wouldnt have answered yes if you'd been asked). That doesnt mean it hasnt though. There is something different about you this sunday from last sunday (even if you're not asked on either day). That difference is that if you were asked you would answer yes last week and not this week. I dont know when the belief changed but know that it has.

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Ok, let's run with that. Why don't I know it's changed? That's why it seems strange to claim "I have" one when it's quite possible (likely?) that it can change ( using your approach) and I wouldn't know it.

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Perhaps this is the crux of our disagreement. I do maintain we have beliefs we are not fully aware of - I've mentioned before that I dont regard my beliefs as a choice but as a discovery.

Why dont you know it's changed? Because you dont know everything about yourself. I'm probably mangling jargon, but it seems to me that you may well have other cognitive tendencies which you are currently unaware of. The fact I dont realise I am more dismissive of ideas put to me by women than men doesnt mean it isnt a fact about my mental predispositions.

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There is nothing you can ask that I won't give you my belief on it ... an infinite number of questions. I doubt that seeing a dog hit by a car instantly changes my belief on road design, car safety feature, animals rights, insurance coverage, penalty for negligence, etc.

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I agree with this but get lost in the next analogy - perhaps going back to memories? You almost had me there...

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It's as if I'm a builder and someone sneaks in and changes some of my materials. My next house will necessarily be different but I won't know about it until I reached for them and started nailing or doing the layout/planning.

If I'm following your view, the new style house was already laying there in the scattered supply yard. It seems a lot like the "an acorn IS an oak tree because it will be one" argument ??

thanks, luckyme

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I think it's more that if someone asked you to build a house now - it would be different from the houses youve built before. You would become aware of it when you started the building.

I'm lost in the second part and suspect I've missed the point of the analogy...nonetheless, I'll make an attempt:

I think if you have one seed which will grow into a red flowers and another which will grow into a blue flower - that is a real difference between them even if you're unable to distinguish them without planting them.

[onesandzeros]

You can only believe something that you truly do not know. In the silence of your mind there are only things you know, and things that you choose not to know.

Beliefs are created to control the ones who wish not know the truth. The ones who cant handle the truth.

[bunny]

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You can only believe something that you truly do not know.

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This seems like just another way of using the word belief differently. I know that seven is prime, I also believe it.

[Philo]

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You can only believe something that you truly do not know.

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Actually, it's the other way around. To know some proposition p you have to believe p. You can't know p without believing p is true.

[onesandzeros]

be·lief /bɪˈlif/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bi-leef] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

know1 /noʊ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[noh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, knew, known, know·ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
1. to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty: I know the situation fully.
2. to have established or fixed in the mind or memory: to know a poem by heart; Do you know the way to the park from here?
3. to be cognizant or aware of: I know it.
4. be acquainted with (a thing, place, person, etc.), as by sight, experience, or report: to know the mayor.
5. to understand from experience or attainment (usually fol. by how before an infinitive): to know how to make gingerbread.
6. to be able to distinguish, as one from another: to know right from wrong.
7. Archaic. to have sexual intercourse with.
–verb (used without object)
8. to have knowledge or clear and certain perception, as of fact or truth.
9. to be cognizant or aware, as of some fact, circumstance, or occurrence; have information, as about something.
–noun
10. the fact or state of knowing; knowledge.
—Idioms
11. in the know, possessing inside, secret, or special information.
12. know the ropes, Informal. to understand or be familiar with the particulars of a subject or business: He knew the ropes better than anyone else in politics.


Believing doesn't require experiencing. Only through experience can you really ever "know".

We are generally, since birth, TOLD what to believe and accept as fact and truth.

[Philo]

Dictionary entries on how we use the word "believe" won't settle any philosophical issues about the nature of beliefs.

My point was that most philosophers (in the so-called analytic tradition, at least) accept something like the JTB analysis of knowledge (setting aside the problem of giving necessary and sufficient conditions for knowledge in terms of a JTB analysis), where "JTB" stands for "justified true belief." In other words, to have knowledge that p for some proposition p requires that one believes p, that p is true, and that one is justified in believing p.

[Bork]

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Dictionary entries on how we use the word "believe" won't settle any philosophical issues about the nature of beliefs.

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Not only that but number one of his quoted dictionary definitions of 'to know' is:
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to perceive or understand as fact or truth

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Sounds like believing to me.

[BeatUp]

Are there really 3 pages of discussion on what a belief is? I never really got into that whole "what is truth" "what is knowledge" philosophical BS. Seems pretty straightforward to me. A belief is an idea based on experience, knowledge, and understanding, or lack thereof. I believe this discussion is pointless. See, it's easy.

Now go write 3 more pages on what experience is.