You Play Too Tight

[AndrewtheBold]

I think there are a few factors that you may not have taken into account. First, I think the skill of the player should be considered. An expert player can play more hands profitably than a novice player can. You said yourself that this issue is mostly limited to small stakes and micro. If we assume that a player plays at those levels because he is not that good, then maybe a little preflop tightness is in order to prevent big post flop mistakes.

I play 5/10 B&M games. I don't have precise stats, but I would guess that I play too tight by your standards. Maybe I could add some hands to my play and make a little more money, but I would have a lot more tough decisions.

Second, I think the objective of the player should be considered. There is a reason that I don't want to push a small edge (aside from the fact that it may be a small loss if I don't play well). I would rather increase the chances of me leaving the casino a winner that day. Is that a good strategy for a professional? No, but neither is playing the 5/10. I think I am costing myself a relatively small amount of profit for decreased variance and the psychological benefit of more winning sessions. I know you pointed out how big the cost of a strategy like this might be, but again, I'm talking about the 5/10. Part of that cost comes from other players recognizing your starting requirements, which I dare say will almost never happen at a 5/10 game in a casino.

Clearly you are a better player than I am and I don't disagree that you are right from a mathematical standpoint. However, maximizing profit is not the only objective. Many people will disagree with that statement, but if I only wanted to maximize profit, I would work more hours at my real job instead of playing low limit poker. Someone who plays 8 tables online is probably more interested in maximizing profit than someone who plays at a casino on the weekends.

[AlexM]

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't understand why people who do it for their sole source of income could play so little....... I would like an explanation from somebody on this forum....

[/ QUOTE ]

When it's your sole source of income, it's work. When you have something else that you can look at and say "okay, this is work," it's a lot easier to see the fun in poker. When poker becomes the work, it becomes a matter of "well, I'd rather be doing xxx."

Or maybe I'm just trying to rationalize something I don't really understand in myself. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Derek in NYC]

I recently came across this thread, which I had bookmarked earlier. The fascinating thing was that virtually all of my answers tracked Nate's advice (with a few inconsistencies, such as reraising 66 from the SB instead of calling a MP raiser). What makes this fascinating to me is that I have been playing exclusively 6-max for several months now and the only reason my answers track Nate's is that Im reflecting my SH actions. I doubt that my full ring play would be this aggressive.

[jstewsmole]

I think one of the main points Nate is trying to make, IMO, is not only are u missing out on some profit by not playing these other hands but people wont become as good a postflop player (player in general) if they are constantly avoiding tougher postflop decisions. Michael replied that he couldnt turn the profit that Nate could with some of these other hands but if u keep avoiding these hands how do u expect to learn how to play them postflop. How can one expect to play these hands profitably if there always avoiding them.

The other point he says, which i totally agree, is that people are more interested in 4 tabling or more, 2/4 or whatever because they know they could make a decent wage doing this but they are not becoming better players. Id rather one table 30/60 if i had the BR and sacrifice all profit if it would make me a better player in the long run. Instead of adding tables move up limits and decrease tables if needed.

Since February of this year playing 2/4 until about the middle of may, I had a vpip of about 27% and a win rate of about 2.5/100 so it can be done. Now i dont recommend playing like this at all, but ive noticed that depending on the competition ur playing u can really increase ur vpip if ur are considerably stronger postflop than the other players at the table. Playing this loosely (and i dont anymore because i noticed moving up in limits that thats way too high a vpip)has really helpe d me become a better postflop player i believe since iam facing alot more difficult decisions.

Some people are complacent though to keep doing what there doing and theres nothing wrong with that. I just think thatll stunt ur growth as a player.

I think it all depends on ur goals if it is just about making money playing smaller limits then thats fine but if its improving as a player then thats fine too.

I personally would rather sacrific e profit for a year if it means that i will be able to beat middle limit games or higher down the road.

[siegfriedandroy]

Hey Nate. Thanks for the post man. Good food for thought. I am still a relative newbie (have played seriously for less than a year). I am still at low limits (moving from 1/2 to 2/4), and am concerned about this issue you brought up in my own play. I am afraid that I may be too tight at times pre-flop.

I don't have poker tracker yet, so i dont exactly what my VPIP is. I bsasically try to more or less follow SSHE's tight game guidelines (since most of the low limit games I play seem to always average below 6 players per flop.

Question: IF A PLAYER FOLLOWS THESE GUIDELINES EXACTLY, WILL HE BE TOO TIGHT PRE-FLOP? These guidelines seem quite tight to me, and I get the impression that if you followed them precisely you might get a VPIP around 15, which is too low, right? Can anyone clarify for me exactly what VPIP these guidelines will tend to produce? Ive read posts about players who complain about their % being too low, and I get the impression they are playing similar to SSHE's guidelines.

What do you think about this Nate? Will I be too tight if I stick to these rules generally? (barring obvious circumstances where it's clear I should deviate) I don't believe the pre-flop section even addresses blind steal/defense adjustments, and Im really concerned about how to improve and implement better guidelines for this area of my game as well. So basically, I'd like to know at what levels the tight guidelines should be more or less followed. Perhaps as you progress to higher limits, the games for some reason dictate looser starting requirements. This seems counterintuitive to me, though, since the games should be getting tighter- in which case Sklansky's starting advice says that your preflop requirements should tighten as well.

Im confused since so many here seem to emphasize and caution against overly tight preflop standards and poor blind steal/defense play, especially since SSHE/THFAP seems to call for generally tight play, w/o much specific advice on how to employ quality blind steal/defense methods. (Perhaps they should write a new text specifically addressing these issues).

Anyway, I have no idea where to find definitive instruction and advice on these issues. There is much general discussion on this site, but nothing I really feel confident enough about to implement in my game. I need to clarify all this before moving up significantly.

Thnnks for any thoughts, advice, etc.

[joop]

[ QUOTE ]

Question: IF A PLAYER FOLLOWS THESE GUIDELINES EXACTLY, WILL HE BE TOO TIGHT PRE-FLOP? These guidelines seem quite tight to me, and I get the impression that if you followed them precisely you might get a VPIP around 15, which is too low, right? Can anyone clarify for me exactly what VPIP these guidelines will tend to produce? Ive read posts about players who complain about their % being too low, and I get the impression they are playing similar to SSHE's guidelines.

[/ QUOTE ]

Playing using these guidelines, with a bit of extra stealing and blind defence (not as much as is recommended on this forum though), will give you a VPIP of 17.5%.

[Case Closed]

Nice post thanks.

[baronzeus]

1. raise
2. raise
3. raise
4. raise
5. call
6. fold
7. raise
8. raise
9. call
10. call
11. raise
12. raose
13. call
14. call
15. raise
16. raise
17. raise
18. fold
19. raise
20. raise/fold 50/50
21. call
22. fold
23. fold

[krubban]

very interesting, thanks!

[Gregatron]

It's interesting that you reply to this. I have since taken the advice of the thread to heart and am not longer a 15 vpip-er (~18-19 full ring now). I think I am a better player because of it.