Is set vs. set neutral EV over long term

[linuxrocks]

I remember reading some where that set vs. set on the flop is pretty much neutral EV as the number of times some one has a higher set is equal to the number of times you have higher set. Is this true?

[jstill]

yeah coolers like that over the long run you're bound to be on the winning end as often as the losing end approaching infinity...

I think a slight difference is that overly passive players who dont get enough value from all of their hands will win less on the winning end and lose more on the losing end ie they stack off everytime when the flush hits or someones got a higher set ect but bet small or slow play when they are on the winning end and dont get TP or overpairs to put in their whole stack when they might have been able to, and thus win a bit less in the long run with those big winning hands than they should but lose the same when coolered as everyone else.

so basically just dont be that guy, fast play and make standard sized bets all the time (with and without hands) looking to bet enough to get your stack in when youre on the winning end of a cooler or close to, cuz your probably gonna stack off when your on the losing end with sets/flushes ect.

[gull]

If you fold low pairs more than another player, you'll profit from set over set situations. However, you'll lose the profit from low set vs. anything situations.

[jay_shark]

Yes it's neutral EV if we make the assumption that the two players involved have equal skill .

Do you think this is the case ?

Well obviously not .

[jordiepop]

i think it is. so is aa vs kk pre flop. i try my best to be that guy that can fold qq+ when people flop sets , but i think those situations can be very close to neutral as well.

[Albert Moulton]

[ QUOTE ]
I remember reading some where that set vs. set on the flop is pretty much neutral EV as the number of times some one has a higher set is equal to the number of times you have higher set. Is this true?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on the stack sizes and preflop play. If you routinely call 10% or more of your stack preflop to flop a set, and/or routinely call large raises with small pairs OOP (especially heads up), then you probably pay too much the times you don't flop a set to compensate for your big wins with set vs pair/low-set and your big losses with set vs straight/flush/higher-set.

Also, it is possible in deep stack games to fold a set. It is also possible in deep stack no limit to fold low pairs in EP, as recommended by Ciaffone and Rueben's book, in order to avoid this problem OOP.

So, if you play well, it is possible to minimize your loses with the small sets and therefore have better thant neutral EV vs the times you have high sets.

[Albert Moulton]

[ QUOTE ]
i think it is. so is aa vs kk pre flop. i try my best to be that guy that can fold qq+ when people flop sets , but i think those situations can be very close to neutral as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Gordon is right when he says that the 4th raise is almost always aces. If you have deep enough stacks preflop vs a tight/solid opponent, and if you raise, get reraised, you re-reraise, and he pushes, then KK is probably no good. In most 100bb games, you just don't have enough chips to get to the 4th raise. So, in those games, you are right.