MTT Red Zone strategy

[masman21]

In Harrington Hold 'Em, he discusses M and Red Zone is push or fold. However, in early position an all-in bet might discourage any action, which I suppose is fine since you pick up the blinds and antes. But is limping early "bad" here and why or why not?

[helter skelter]

Red Zone means you are low on chips and need to get more. The blinds and antes will add significantly to your stack.

Limping is bad because then your hand has to beat anyone who calls you and the BB, whereas if you raise and everyone folds, your hand does not have to beat another hand.

The problem I have with redzone strategy outlined by Harrington is that it hardly ever works for me. I always seem to get at least 1 caller when I am shortstacked. Maybe it's more successful in live tourneys than online.

So I don't always try stealing with a garbage hand when I'm in the red zone. Sometimes, I'll just pass on it when I am pretty sure I am going to get called.

[Jon_AK]

HOH's red zone strategy has some flaws to it - - - it is too aggresive. I believe this strategy will work in live/deep stack tournies, but online, when you get into the red zone, your stack may be just slightly less than the average stack (average stack with 1500 starting chips is usally 6-10 when you're deep). Not to mention, everyone is aware of the zone strategy and will call very loose. Harrington had an example with his structured hand analysis, his calling range for the "loosest" player is about the average calling range in online MTT's. The idea of pushing any two (especially UTG) is horrible. You have to catch some kind of hand because you know someone is going to call it. I have a tighter range when I get to M=5-6 than harrington suggests simple because people's calling range is way higher than he gives credit. Especially in blind-to-blind situation where people will call with king-rag - - - this really kills the +EV that you think you are getting by shoving. As for limping in, that is major no-no. What you're doing in the red zone is trying to save your chips for a big move that will double your stack. In the last two tournaments I got deep in, I was down to an m of 4 on the bubble. I just folded pretty much everything until I hit pocket jacks, I shoved in, and got called by A7 - easy double up. First in vigor is vital - - but so are your cards. If you tread carefully in the red zone, you could really stack up and get yourself in the top 5%. Another thing I'll do, with an M of 3 or less, in the BB, with a lot limpers/raisers is just shove my chips w/ anything - - this gives you the chance to sometimes quadruple your stack instead of double it with decent cards. yeah you will probably lose, but with an M of 3 or less, what is going to happen? exactly. I'd like to make a different theory for zone strategy simply because I think harrington's gets abused and people will call with a massive range.




$.02

[BlueEcho]

I have to make an assumption here but when you ask is limping bad from early position in the red zone, do you mean with hands like QT, JT, KJ or the like? If so then are you planning on folding if someone raises it? You should be able to see why this is bad as while in the red zone a limp would be a considerable percentage of your stack. Folding there would be bad. Also you give up FE and 1st in vigor that an open shove gives you.

[masman21]

I figured limping was a no-no but thought I would get other people's take on the idea. What range is reasonable to push with? Obviously any pair, any ace? any two face cards? Suited face card?

Also, what about people entering the pot before you? Not necessarily raising just limping. You stand to win one more bet but that is one more person that could potentially call if anyone else calls because they're getting the right price. Am I worrying too much here or over thinking it? Am I confusing limping as first in vigor?

[masman21]

You are correct in your assumption BlueEcho. I continue to go deep in live tournaments ($300+ buy-ins) only to take a hit late or go card dead and end up bubbling. I see these scenarios time and again, so I'm wondering if I'm just playing wrong in these situations.

[Jon_AK]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I confusing limping as first in vigor?

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah, limping is not first in vigor. With other limpers in front of you, your range is obv going to get WAY tighter because with 2 or more limpers you are almost certainly going to be called. I'll give you this range, but it is obv going to be different given the way the players have been playing at the table.



this is with an M of exactly 5 and no limpers/raisers in the pot yet.

Early pos.
99+
AQ+

Middle pos.
77+
A-10 suited
AJ+

Late pos:
66+
A-10+
KQ

button/sb:
22+
A2+
K-9+

This is obviously with big exceptions but standard for me when then the average stack is orange zone, and I'm in the red. MUCH tighter than any two but with more people willing to call, you need to tighten your range accordingly

[helter skelter]

Does this work for you, Jon? This is even way tighter than Kill-Phil, let alone Harrington.

I default to Kill-Phil when I don't know what to do.

[Jon_AK]

I have roughly used this range in the last 3 (micro) tournaments, in 2 of them, I was pretty much dead with an M of 4 when we were the top 35%-40% remaining field. In one I managed to recover and finish 60th/3000 and in the other I landed 100th/2500.


It's funny because after I get in the top 100, I see how tight everyone is getting so I start to shove with a wider range - - only to get called by K-4/Q-8 etc. So I think I just need to not only use this range, but stick to it.

Don't try to be clever with a shortstack - it never works. I think the only time you can truly play tricky is if you have a very solid read or have a green-healthy stack.

[OrangeKing]

One thing to keep in mind is that it's perfectly ok to push and get called by a better hand when you have a short stack. In fact, a lot of pushes when your M is very low expect this to happen.

Your profit comes from the fact that you sometimes pick up the pot uncontested, and that you often (but a minority of the time) win the pot when called.