(razz) Another hand from the bring-in

[AggressiveCall]

I hate playing these, but it just seems like sometimes I have to. I've played with Seat 8 a fair amount at these tables. Fairly loose, he likes to limp in and see 4th a lot, quite willing to have 2 card 7s and the like. He is quite capable of betting all streets with a good looking board and turning over nothing, but of course anyone can hit a hand.

I've really appreciated all the feedback so far, and welcome criticism of all streets.

Razz ($0.25/$0.50), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (1.80 SB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (1.90 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (3.90 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

River - (5.90 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___??
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___

Total pot: (5.90 BB - $2.95)

[GLKST526]

Two questions that I think are fairly important when looking at this hand, and which you may have some idea of the answer to if you have played with the player a bit. First of all, he likes to limp a lot, but does he limp solely with his 2 card 6s and 7s, or does he limp with those as well as his good hands? Secondly, is he the type to pay off on the river when he is probably beat?

If he is the type to only limp these bad hands, I don't think that peeling on 4th is a terrible play assuming you will fold if you don't improve, even if he bricks as well. If he is willing to limp with his good hands, even a hand like a rough 8, then I would be much more likely to fold on 4th, it's just too hard to define his hand with the 3 up, and with a player like this you can probably find a much better situation.

The other problem is with the jack showing, your hand is fairly well defined. If you are a decent player, you will rarely if ever had anything less then two cards seven and below in the hole. Because of this, he can define your hand pretty well, while you have no idea what he has. So, if he's the type who will call, even when you show three low cards on your board, making it likely you've made a hand, then it also leans towards calling. In general though, I would probably fold this hand on 4th, I just think against an opponent who plays the way you describe, you will have plenty of opportunities to take his money and outplay him

[*TT*]

fold 4th street.

Always be cognizant of the size of the pot.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
fold 4th street.

Always be cognizant of the size of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, or else raise him. That's always fun and makes the pot bigger.

[AggressiveCall]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold 4th street.

Always be cognizant of the size of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, or else raise him. That's always fun and makes the pot bigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. Well, I don't think I'm that confident on my read. Good advice from everyone, there'll be better places to put my money in, the pot is tiny, just not worth dealing with this hand. No matter how tempting that draw looked.... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[betgo]

Yeh, fold 4th. The pot is small and the limper is probably ahead of you. The limper limped in sort of an ante stealing situation, so there is some possibility he is trapping or doesn't know to raise a decent hand. In any case, he probably has a better hand than yours, and he has an advantage that any weakness is concealed.

[Andy B]

Yeah, fold fourth, and since you asked, check-fold the river.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold 4th street.

Always be cognizant of the size of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, or else raise him. That's always fun and makes the pot bigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. Well, I don't think I'm that confident on my read. Good advice from everyone, there'll be better places to put my money in, the pot is tiny, just not worth dealing with this hand. No matter how tempting that draw looked.... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I was kidding - sorry - my kids don't get my jokes, either. But unlike everyone else around here, I'm with you, I call 4th. This hand, IMO, (which, ask anyone, is not highly regarded) is too good at this point not to see one more card. If you'd call if it was raised, I say see 5th. I realized at some point I believe this because of coming from holdem. There, once I'm in the pot, I see 5 cards before I choosing to do anything significant.

Sometimes there are circumstances that make me fold now. But I'd call this in a heartbeat.

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
If you'd call if it was raised, I say see 5th. I realized at some point I believe this because of coming from holdem. There, once I'm in the pot, I see 5 cards before I choosing to do anything significant.

Sometimes there are circumstances that make me fold now. But I'd call this in a heartbeat.

[/ QUOTE ]
I just got around to looking at this thread, and here you've really touched a nerve Prax. Not that I think your tendency to call 4th in this spot is horrible (tho it is -EV unless you're likely to seriously outplay him on later streets), but because of the analogy you're drawing between razz and HE. There are painfully few HE concepts that hold up in razz, and taking a bit the worst of it to see the "flop" (or 5 cards out of 7) will often get you in trouble in HE, but is murder in razz. The primary reasons are that you need to call twice as many small bets to see the "flop", and it's rare to wind up with a cinch hand on the "flop" in razz since all 5 cards have to work together. It's like playing HE with a stright-or-better qualifier.