5/10- 300xBB deep with KK in 4-bet pot.

[mythrilfox]

he only made it 270 more preflop w/ 2.5k behind... you are obviously calling with anything you squeezed with to begin with, so hes going to continuation bet a LOT since your range is so wide.

[Parlay Slow]

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When you say let him off the hook as a 4 to 1 dog, then you are assuming he will fire one and only one c-bet on the flop and then shutdown, correct? If this is the case then I agree with you and dislke the 5bet after reconsideration. But that is walking a fine line no pun intended. I beleive most villians that were 4betting air/bluffing will shutdown as soon as you call the 4bet unless they flop 2pair+. If this is true than we are not letting them off the hook, but rather denying them the chance of out flopping us. I think it hinges on the question of, "will villian make a c-bet bluff if he doesnt have AA?" and, "if villian is capable of c-betting flop with air can he make the shove on the turn?"
if question 1 is yes and question 2 is no then your line is best.
if question 1 is no or question 2 is yes then i think a 5-bet has some benefit.
Do you see my point at all?

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If you think he is going to be super aggro in 4bet pots, then you obviously call and just call him down or something. If he is not going to bluff, or will only bluff once, you want to call still.
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If he's not going to bluff post flop, but you are committed to going broke, then it should be obvious that re-raising is better.

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If he isn't going to bluff postflop then I'm probably not going broke here.

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So what should I do if I think he's 4 bet bluffing enough here that I can't fold, but he'll never try to bluff post flop?

What's better.. calling pf and folding to a flop bet or jamming pre flop?

I think my previous statement in this thread may have been wrong.

[aislephive]

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When you say let him off the hook as a 4 to 1 dog, then you are assuming he will fire one and only one c-bet on the flop and then shutdown, correct? If this is the case then I agree with you and dislke the 5bet after reconsideration. But that is walking a fine line no pun intended. I beleive most villians that were 4betting air/bluffing will shutdown as soon as you call the 4bet unless they flop 2pair+. If this is true than we are not letting them off the hook, but rather denying them the chance of out flopping us. I think it hinges on the question of, "will villian make a c-bet bluff if he doesnt have AA?" and, "if villian is capable of c-betting flop with air can he make the shove on the turn?"
if question 1 is yes and question 2 is no then your line is best.
if question 1 is no or question 2 is yes then i think a 5-bet has some benefit.
Do you see my point at all?

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If you think he is going to be super aggro in 4bet pots, then you obviously call and just call him down or something. If he is not going to bluff, or will only bluff once, you want to call still.
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If he's not going to bluff post flop, but you are committed to going broke, then it should be obvious that re-raising is better.

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If he isn't going to bluff postflop then I'm probably not going broke here.

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So what should I do if I think he's 4 bet bluffing enough here that I can't fold, but he'll never try to bluff post flop?

What's better.. calling pf and folding to a flop bet or jamming pre flop?

I think my previous statement in this thread may have been wrong.

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Well I think almost anybody with these stack sizes would be capable of bluffing once here postflop. I should clarify to say when I mean they don't bluff, they would never make a bluff that risks their entire stack. My line would be to call the 4bet and call one bet postflop on most boards (folding some flops though). I would also take this exact line with AA though, as well. And I think if our hand were faceup it's very unlikely most villains will try to get us off KK.

To answer your question, in theory, if he never bluffed postflop, not even one bluff bet after we call his 4 bet, I still believe calling preflop is by far the better decision than any combination of 5bet/call or 5bet/fold.

[PhishDudeChill]

The moral of this thread is this: We don't really need to think about this hand at all against an opponent like this. We are looking to get it in at any juncture. 5 betting is silly b/c we fold out a lot of the worse hands that will bet flop. But when you aren't playing a complete nit, KK is the nuts here.

[Borned_Luckbox1]

Results: He obv had Aces [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]