3/6 reraise with 7s 4s

[BeerMe]

[ QUOTE ]
Hands 2 and 8 are obviously bad at poker. Watching pokerstove run is a beautiful lesson in variance.

Though these are of course random hands, it's probably the most reasonable assessment of villains' ranges if they're going to the flop eight-handed.

70,314,353 games 318.172 secs 220,994 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 10.939% 09.96% 00.98% 7002615 688918.83 { 74s }
Hand 1: 11.137% 10.07% 01.07% 7079698 751172.50 { random }
Hand 2: 11.127% 10.06% 01.07% 7072423 751204.08 { random }
Hand 3: 11.135% 10.07% 01.07% 7078708 750987.17 { random }
Hand 4: 11.135% 10.07% 01.07% 7078622 750903.58 { random }
Hand 5: 11.133% 10.06% 01.07% 7077115 751277.67 { random }
Hand 6: 11.133% 10.06% 01.07% 7075732 752124.75 { random }
Hand 7: 11.134% 10.07% 01.07% 7077767 751369.50 { random }
Hand 8: 11.127% 10.06% 01.07% 7072233 751513.92 { random }

[/ QUOTE ]

The hand was 7s5s, not 7-4

[HollywoodDB]

[ QUOTE ]

I bet he even played it kinda crappy postflop, like slowplaying or making a bet instead of a c/r. I bet he is a total spazz.

JT

[/ QUOTE ]

Doing anything other than betting this flop would be almost as bad as his initial preflop 3bet.

[BeerMe]

[ QUOTE ]
Hands 2 and 8 are obviously bad at poker. Watching pokerstove run is a beautiful lesson in variance.

Though these are of course random hands, it's probably the most reasonable assessment of villains' ranges if they're going to the flop eight-handed.

70,314,353 games 318.172 secs 220,994 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 10.939% 09.96% 00.98% 7002615 688918.83 { 74s }
Hand 1: 11.137% 10.07% 01.07% 7079698 751172.50 { random }
Hand 2: 11.127% 10.06% 01.07% 7072423 751204.08 { random }
Hand 3: 11.135% 10.07% 01.07% 7078708 750987.17 { random }
Hand 4: 11.135% 10.07% 01.07% 7078622 750903.58 { random }
Hand 5: 11.133% 10.06% 01.07% 7077115 751277.67 { random }
Hand 6: 11.133% 10.06% 01.07% 7075732 752124.75 { random }
Hand 7: 11.134% 10.07% 01.07% 7077767 751369.50 { random }
Hand 8: 11.127% 10.06% 01.07% 7072233 751513.92 { random }

[/ QUOTE ]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

11,408,182 games 1277.950 secs 8,926 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 12.332% 11.30% 01.03% 1289629 117313.00 { 7s5s }
Hand 1: 10.945% 09.89% 01.05% 1128551 120202.75 { random }
Hand 2: 10.969% 09.91% 01.06% 1130883 120582.00 { random }
Hand 3: 10.978% 09.93% 01.05% 1132388 120066.25 { random }
Hand 4: 10.960% 09.90% 01.06% 1129714 120649.25 { random }
Hand 5: 10.956% 09.90% 01.06% 1129407 120611.08 { random }
Hand 6: 10.943% 09.89% 01.05% 1128279 120244.42 { random }
Hand 7: 10.954% 09.90% 01.05% 1129680 120017.92 { random }
Hand 8: 10.963% 09.91% 01.06% 1130255 120469.33 { random }


---

[shane88888]

143,274,953 games 647.719 secs 221,199 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 12.030% 10.95% 01.08% 15694977 1541700.14 { 75s }
Hand 1: 10.994% 09.93% 01.06% 14233782 1517682.97 { random }
Hand 2: 11.001% 09.94% 01.06% 14243484 1517722.64 { random }
Hand 3: 10.996% 09.94% 01.06% 14237648 1517256.39 { random }
Hand 4: 10.995% 09.94% 01.06% 14236992 1516427.81 { random }
Hand 5: 10.995% 09.94% 01.06% 14234578 1519183.89 { random }
Hand 6: 10.998% 09.94% 01.06% 14239510 1518533.47 { random }
Hand 7: 10.997% 09.94% 01.06% 14238753 1517303.31 { random }
Hand 8: 10.992% 09.93% 01.06% 14231830 1517634.39 { random }

How exactly is open-raising from EP the way to build a big pot? If you drive two opponents out of the pot, you're even at absolute best. If you drive out three, you're facing an equity deficit, plus you're out of position.

18,108,557 games 38.234 secs 473,624 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 16.350% 15.10% 01.25% 2733884 226881.92 { 75s }
Hand 1: 16.721% 15.49% 01.23% 2805041 222983.08 { random }
Hand 2: 16.735% 15.50% 01.23% 2807570 223025.25 { random }
Hand 3: 16.727% 15.50% 01.23% 2806348 222698.00 { random }
Hand 4: 16.741% 15.51% 01.23% 2808580 223073.00 { random }
Hand 5: 16.725% 15.49% 01.23% 2805768 222983.25 { random }

[HollywoodDB]

[ QUOTE ]



Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

11,408,182 games 1277.950 secs 8,926 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 12.332% 11.30% 01.03% 1289629 117313.00 { 7s5s }
Hand 1: 10.945% 09.89% 01.05% 1128551 120202.75 { random }
Hand 2: 10.969% 09.91% 01.06% 1130883 120582.00 { random }
Hand 3: 10.978% 09.93% 01.05% 1132388 120066.25 { random }
Hand 4: 10.960% 09.90% 01.06% 1129714 120649.25 { random }
Hand 5: 10.956% 09.90% 01.06% 1129407 120611.08 { random }
Hand 6: 10.943% 09.89% 01.05% 1128279 120244.42 { random }
Hand 7: 10.954% 09.90% 01.05% 1129680 120017.92 { random }
Hand 8: 10.963% 09.91% 01.06% 1130255 120469.33 { random }


---

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this is that you're not up against 8 random hands. I know it is live 3/6, but still, UTG is not limping in with 83o, not to mention the preflop bet/4bettor. You need to sprinkle in a few more suited 1 or 2 gappers, some KTo type hands and some small PP's plus what ever the preflop aggressors range is.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

any thoughts?


[/ QUOTE ]

your friend is an idiot.

[BeerMe]

[ QUOTE ]
How exactly is open-raising from EP the way to build a big pot? If you drive two opponents out of the pot, you're even at absolute best. If you drive out three, you're facing an equity deficit, plus you're out of position.



[/ QUOTE ]

AS I stated in my original post, I am a very aggressive player in this particular game. Often, I find players folding to me when I am in late position simply because they do not wish to play me to an inevitable raise when they are out of position. For that reason, I open raise from EP with speculative hands and monsters alike from EP to build a pot. I find that I get six to eight callers and sometimes a 3 bet into me when I do this.

[BeerMe]

[ QUOTE ]


The problem with this is that you're not up against 8 random hands. I know it is live 3/6, but still, UTG is not limping in with 83o, not to mention the preflop bet/4bettor. You need to sprinkle in a few more suited 1 or 2 gappers, some KTo type hands and some small PP's plus what ever the preflop aggressors range is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point taken on not being up against random hands. Again, I was the original raiser as well as the capper pre.

[Hyperrrprank]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How exactly is open-raising from EP the way to build a big pot? If you drive two opponents out of the pot, you're even at absolute best. If you drive out three, you're facing an equity deficit, plus you're out of position.



[/ QUOTE ]

AS I stated in my original post, I am a very aggressive player in this particular game. Often, I find players folding to me when I am in late position simply because they do not wish to play me to an inevitable raise when they are out of position. For that reason, I open raise from EP with speculative hands and monsters alike from EP to build a pot. I find that I get six to eight callers and sometimes a 3 bet into me when I do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Enough people have chimed in on the value of "building a pot" with junk like 75s. Repeating that again feels a bit like explaining the world is round to someone from 14th century Spain, so I'll skip it.

What I'd like to comment on is the statement above, that you "find" that people fold to your late position raises and call your early position ones. If this is truly what you've found, then your statistic sample is either too small or horribly flawed.

Raising from late position will NOT limit the field, since many people have already had the chance to limp in, and virtually no one folds when it is one bet back to them preflop.

Raising from early position WILL limit the field, since you've represented more strength to those who understand position, and even those in the absolute dark still need to call with twice as many chips.

Anything you say that implies your raising from EP to build a pot, or from LP to limit the field is like saying you like to jump in the ocean to get dry.

If you don't believe me, well, that doesn't mean the earth is flat.

[invrnrv]

preflop equity can be overcome if you can make the preflop loss through deception. For example, if you three-bet with rags and flop trips, you are almost certainly going to get called down to the river with high pocket pairs.

Let's look at the preflop equity of this hand against 1 tight, 4 weak, and 2 random opponents:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 16.275% 15.46% 00.81% 21462988 1129870.88 { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 13.805% 12.92% 00.88% 17941423 1223784.71 { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 13.626% 12.96% 00.67% 17986497 929052.29 { 77+, A2s+, K2s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s }
Hand 3: 10.306% 09.56% 00.75% 13270061 1036948.29 { 55+, A2s+, K4s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A5o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 13.805% 12.92% 00.88% 17939645 1224255.71 { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 5: 08.833% 08.16% 00.68% 11324682 937393.71 { random }
Hand 6: 08.826% 08.15% 00.68% 11314467 938147.96 { random }
Hand 7: 14.525% 13.80% 00.73% 19154505 1009518.13 { 75s }

75s clearly has positive equity preflop. If you replace the random players with very tight players (that also play suited broadway), then this equity goes up even higher.

combine this with the fact that the hero's hand is relatively masked, thus that he'll get calls on the turn and river when he is dominating other players, it may come out to a winning play.

This works especially well since the player has already displayed a maniacally aggressive image on the table, and it apparently the players on the table do not adjust to this type of play.

- inverse.