Congratulations WPEX on dumbest improvement ever

[Palomino]

[ QUOTE ]
most of the money you say they are making off us they are giving back
15k in the 3 vip tournies each week
aces never lose
overlays in tournies several times per day
and 75% rakeback

so to say they are making money on us is unfair

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, do you think that they don't make up the 15k/week even with only receiving 25% rake. Their initial rake is so high to begin with that even 25% rake is still netting them quite a bit of money. I have no facts to back up my claims but I would be shocked if they didn't make a ton of money off the 25% rake alone, not to mention the interest they receive. It is naive to believe that WSEX has put the pokerroom purely to be nice to us. No one does anything for free and no one expects them to. To believe otherwise is plain ignorance.

[6471849653]

They are either out of their minds or something is not right. I stopped playing there a long time ago.

[Guthrie]

We can debate HHs and HUDs forever, but splitting the already meager player base like this is so far beyond stupid that it stretches the imagination as to how otherwise rational business people could possibly come up with it.

I had already pretty much given up on Wpex, but tried to play a little every week just to keep my account open while hoping they found some players and fixed the horrible software, but this will probably be the final nail.

[jafeather]

[ QUOTE ]

As a side affect i would bet that the avg pot in your non hhs rooms will be larger then in your hhs rooms

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting hypothesis. I would be interested to see evidence to back it.
(not doubting it's possibility, just looking for confirmation of it)

[PokerAce]

[ QUOTE ]

HUDs are going to be the downfall of internet poker. They need to go, or within 10 years, internet poker will be very, very dead. HUDs cause the fish to bust too fast. HUDs cause what should be marginal losers to become marginal winners by taking a significant aspect of poker out of the game.

If you want internet poker to survive for the next 10 years, you have to protect the fish. Removing hand histories altogether is indeed the BEST way to do that.

However, there are concerns with this approach. Namely, we lose the ability to keep the poker site itself honest. No more databases of 500k hands we can run statistical analysis on to make sure the games are fair. This is pretty important for keeping poker alive too. I don't trust the sites to stay honest if they don't have to answer to their players.

So there needs to be some compromise therein. The HUDs need to go, but the statistical tracking needs to stay. Its a very difficult compromise to reach, and that I dont think anyone really has any good answers to do it.

Removing names from HHs is god, but it isn't the solution. It stops you from datamining, but your hud still works (deducing other peoples stats is trivial if you know your position at the table).

It's a tough situation, and I applaud WSEX for taking a long-term approach to the problem, but removing hand histories altogether is not the answer. But I don't know any other way to make HUDs stop working, while keeping our statistical tracking abilities.

The only method I can think of is the complete removal of hand histories coupled with in-site statistical tracking. It's not perfect (sites *might* be able to fudge them) but i do believe it's the best answer.

And if WSEX is planning on doing that, I'll move there when they do.

As to whether they can financially afford to be this forward-thinking, well, that's up to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

So something that makes marginal losers into marginal winners should be eliminated? So we should eliminate all poker books? They've done more damage to online poker than anything. Should the sites automatically ban anyone with positive earnings? Oh, and we need to shut down 2+2 and other poker forums as well. All the learning that's gone on here has surely affected the quality of the games.

The online games were getting tougher way before HUDs came around. Smart players will find a way to win and take the poor player's money. You (and others who use this argument) seem to think that fish load their bankroll once, then stop. Most casual players know they're probably going to lose but don't care. They are GAMBLERS. Therefore, they are prepared to lose. Heck, most of them even have JOBS that keep their income coming in. They then deposit some of their discretionary income into a poker site to have fun.

If you are a losing player, stop blaming HUD users for your losing. If you aren't a losing player, I suggest you re-evaluate your logic in this matter.

[batair]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As a side affect i would bet that the avg pot in your non hhs rooms will be larger then in your hhs rooms

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting hypothesis. I would be interested to see evidence to back it.
(not doubting it's possibility, just looking for confirmation of it)

[/ QUOTE ]

All you need to do is compare the poker rooms that allow huds vs the rooms that don't.The avg players per flop are higher and the avg pots are always higher in the non hud sites.

I think the same thing would would happen in the hh rooms vs the non hh rooms.It might not show up at wpex because of the limited number of tables.But if this were done at a larger site i believe it would be more evident.

[batair]

[ QUOTE ]

So something that makes marginal losers into marginal winners should be eliminated? So we should eliminate all poker books? They've done more damage to online poker than anything. Should the sites automatically ban anyone with positive earnings? Oh, and we need to shut down 2+2 and other poker forums as well. All the learning that's gone on here has surely affected the quality of the games.

[/ QUOTE ]

My problem with huds is that they take advantaged of unknowing players.Even the fishiest of fish know that there are poker books and forms about poker.But not many no about huds and the other programs that are tracking there every move to me this is unfair.

In fact by wpex making this move to inform all the players of these programs this is the only site i would feel comfortable using these programs.

[Shandrax]

[ QUOTE ]
My problem with huds is that they take advantaged of unknowing players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt that the term "unknowing player" applies anymore, especially on a site where players are aware of the rake.

Anyways, instead of offering two different conditions which may people confront with a decision problem (Buridan's ass), WPEX should just offer the same game that every other site offers on the market with just a much lower rake.

In order to win a competition you need to offer something better and not something different, so your customers don't get confused.

Last but not least, they need to advertise their changes. People who have given up on WPEX must be informed that it is time to return.



My overall point is that the established online sites are robbing their customers making $30 or more profit each month for basically doing nothing. That's the hourly rate of a bankrobber, but not of a serious business. Bringing down the rake to a reasonable amount still guarantees profit, but in a more down-to-earth style that treats the customers with respect.

[MiJ305]

lol at tuff fish , he used a HUD and got crushed by EM2 multiple times ON VIDEO!!!! ...a hud doesnt automatically make u a winning player , and there are ton of players with HUDS who are big losers in a ton of games...

[WSEX GM]

Hello,

We responded to the wishes at this site and other customer requests by offering a full hand history, do what you want with it, hook up IBM Super Blue with a HUD if you like tables. At the same time we continue to offer tables to our players that are not HUD and datamining friendly.

If the prevailing sentiment is full hand histories is good and only a few people want the non-HH tables then the HH should fill up accordingly. Why do people who want full HH and HUDS care if there are also alternative tables at the same time?

You want tables with full HH's and unconditional 75% rakeback. That's what we are offering. So come on back and play.

We eventually want to offer HH's to the anonymous tables, but it will take a bit more work. Once that's installed there will be no names at the seats or in the chat and the HH will just show your name at your seat.

The platform is very stable. All of the disconnect nonsense is behind us. I am still waiting for a report on disconnect protect abuse and will probably be modifying that feature very soon.

Thanks to all who left the supportive comments.

Fred