Post flop play - Top Pair and Overpairs - Advice please........

[maca9]

Hi All

It seems to me there is plenty of great easy to follow advice for pre flop play available on 2+2 and other sources.

Where as post flop play is far more situation specific....which makes sense as there are so many variables.

From my way of understanding it there is a lot of black and white pre flop and also some genuine grey areas where a range of factors need to be conisdered.

For example calling a 3 bet OOP with KJo is a definite no no (for beginner). Limping with AK or AA not recommended....etc etc


And with post flop the more factors involved lead to a much bigger "grey" area where decisions need to be made.

That said i personally think it would be a great help for many of us beginners out there to see some of genuine black and white areas post flop to help build our game upon.

I think the area that would realy help regarding post flop play is for TPTK type hands when facing callers or resistance.

This top pair (or overpair) hand is very common and often tough for newbies. Especially when trying to avoid going broke with top pair BUT at the same time not giving up too much value by folding too often.

Becasue

a) We are trying to tighten our play enough to only play these better hands. (stop playin Q6o :-)

b) With Small PP or SC you are often just judging implied and expressed odds until you hit your hand or have to fold becasue you miss or are priced out. (again for a beginner)

c) When you hit trips or Flushes etc ovbisouly the power of the hand makes it a bit easier to play. (Although probaly not maximise value?)


So with that said i would like some feedback on how we should be playing both Overpairs and TPTK / TPGK when you are the preflop agressor. (e.g 4BB +1BB per limper type raises pre flop)


Please feel free to add any advice or situations but the questions i would like some guidance in terms of a plan from flop to turn etc are:


1) You are pre flop agressor in Position. Checked to you an you bet 3/4 to full pot and are reraised? What difference for Drawy board and dead board?



2) You are pre flop agressor in Position. Checked to you an you bet 3/4 to full pot and are called? What plan here on turn assuming dead board? Obviously with draws on board the turn will either complete flusch etc or not so can re evaluate.


3) You are pre flop agressor in position. Bet into you by 1/2 to full pot - What plan here? What difference for Drawy board and dead board?




Thanks in advance for any responses.

I just want to point out again that i know you can't play poker post flop by numbers so i apoligise if this is FAR TO GENERIC to get any value.

Bur some solid guidleines I think gives us beginners a starting point to deveiate from as our judgement improves and we learn to weigh up more and more factors into any decision. Not just bet size and board texture but table image, stack size, position and reads on villian.

Cheers

[Liptonic]

That is a topic I'd like to discuss as well, beacause I really have problems to lay down TPTK or an overpair. Esp. with overpairs i run into other overpairs very constantly. Often I know that villain also has an overpair, but it is hard to fold QQ or JJ on a dry board like 927 rainbow...

[onda_ogat]

Though general, this is a very good question. With TPTK or overpair I try to bet 2/3-1/1 x pot at flop and then bet the turn to protect against draws, and that leads to pots that are rather bigger than I would like given how easily the hand can be beat. Same time, if I check it's weakness, and if I bet less I'm not protecting my hand against drawers. I don't want to expand the subject too much, but the same applies with other strong looking (but vulnerable) hands like trips with weak-medium kicker. I remember many times getting stacked with like pocket 57 flop 55T.

I'll post 2 hands that I played within 15 minutes of each other at the same table, illustrating the trouble I have with TP/overpair. Results in white, don't read untill you've replied.

While I posted these hands to get more respones, I think this is one subject where it should be possible to give advice on a more general basis, for those of us just learning this game.

TitanPoker NL 0.1/0.2
BB $3.30
UTG $21.90
UTG+1 $7.77
Villain $13.17
Hero $20.78
SB $11.08
BB posts $0.20, SB posts $0.10

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG Call $0.2, UTG+1 Call $0.2, Villain Call $0.2, Hero bet $1.60, SB fold, BB fold, UTG fold, UTG+1 Fold, Villain Call $1.40

Flop 10[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (pot$3.90)
Villain bet $1, Hero bet $4 Villain call $3

Turn (10[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (Pot $11.90)
Villain check, Hero bet $2.80, Villain call $2.80

River(10[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (Pot $17.50)
Villain check, Hero Check

<font color="white"> Hand 1: Villain shows K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="black">

TitanPoker NL 0.1/0.2

UTG $3.60
Villain (MP) $12.60
BTN $8.11
SB $4.11
Hero (BB) $24.97

SB posts $0.10, Hero posts $0.20

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG fold, Villain call $0.2, BTN call $0.2, SB call $0.1, Hero bet $1, Villain call $1, BTN call $1, SB fold.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (Pot $3.80)
Hero bet $3.60, Villain call $3.60, BTN fold

Turn: (8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (Pot $11.00)
Hero bet $5.80, villain bet $7.80 (all in), Hero call $2.00

River (8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (Pot$26.6)

<font color="white"> Villain shows 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="black">


(Can't find a handconverter that works for TitanPoker, so though it may look lame it took me quite an effort to write this... )

[brea]

You really have to have a feel for your opponent. There is no correct answer to any question because the goal is to get your opponent to fold his hand. I think the best advice I can offer you,is observe the players actions. Some players will not fold hands (TPTK or bottom pair). You have to be observant of players tendencies.



In terms of the posted hand histories, I think the way you played AA in that first hand is pretty standard. You have to believe that you are ahead for a slew of reasons. Most players wont push their flopped flush so hard as it removes value from it and if you don't have a big heart you are off the hand...
The second hand is just unlucky. I am sure that by pushing on that flop you are getting full value out of your AA. As well, I think you have to realize that if you are going to play these micro stakes you are going to run into a bunch of tools/morons who can't play poker properly and as a result you will get drawn out on more than you might expect otherwise...

Hope this helps.

[orig!naL]

first AA hand, bet $8.50 or so on the flop. Your weak bet not only looks weak, but you are also allowing the guy to draw out on you.

On the 2nd AA hand, again you are betting too small on the turn. Other than that, it's very tough to get away from that. If I was raised huge on the flop there I would slow way down, but as played it's hard to fold with so much money in the pot.

In general, when you are holding TPTK or an over pair you want to get as much information as possible early on. These hands become VERY vulnerable once a flop bet is called.

As stated, its hard to give exact advice as a lot of these plays are opponent and board texture based. Here are a couple basic guide lines:

Assume for all that your villain is a decent TAG player with stats around 24/20/4. Also assume you have NO reads on the player as for what line they generally take with particular holdings.

1) EP limps, you raise to 5BB with QQ in position, EP calls. Flop comes out 8h4s5d. You C-bet for 70%, EP RR's you 3-4x your bet. This is such a text book line for someone who has just hit a set on you. They limp to try and see a cheap flop with a low PP, call your raise for implied odds and go nuts when they hit their set. Be very aware of this line as it can save you a lot of money in the long run.

Generally, if a decent player limp/calls PF and then starts going nuts on a DRY flop, I can generally lay down the hand pretty easily. Typically, I think its fine to call the flop re-raise and shut down on the turn to a lot of action.

2) 1 limper in EP, CO opens for 5BB, you call on the button with AdTd in postion. Flop comes down Ts9h5c. EP checks, Co bets 75% of pot, action is on you. Typically this is where you want to try and gain some info. In my game I think its much better here to throw a raise out, then to call in position and be totally lost on the turn. Remember that a lot of the time CO is betting into this flop with nothing to take it down. RR his bet 3x, if called it's generally time to shut down (unless you have a massive draw or a lot of outs).

Additionally, generally if I'm in position with TPTK or some sort of marginal holding, I don't like to 3-barrel all 3 streets if I'm being called down. If you bet the flop and get called, bet the turn and get called, and are checked to again on the river, its generally a good idea to just check behind. At that point you are probably only going to get called by better hands, so there isn't much value in betting.

It is VERY VERY important to adjust your betting and call down requirements for each opponent as you play more and more hands with them. Generally if I'm on a table for 30 minutes or so I can get a pretty good idea for the strength of hand I need to stack off with each villain. If you see a station who is playing 50/30/8, and you have seen them lose half their stack with an under pair or middle pair, I will usually be willing to stack off to them with most TPTK or over pair type hands. On the contrary, if I have a really solid TAG at my table, playing 17/15/4, my TPTK is almost always going to need to improve by the turn/river if I'm going to be calling down big bets. At the same time, you should pay attention to villains who are playing too tight or "scared". If I notice someone is playing very tight/passive, I will definitely be widing my 3-bet range against them. On the opposite, if a villain is a big calling station, I will be tightening up my 3-bet range both pre and post flop.

Keep in mind post flop play NEEDS to be so dynamic based on many factors including your imagine, your opponents style/range/habbits, board texture, stack sizes ect... What I've said here are just a couple concepts that are very basic frameworks for particular situations; by no means should these paths be taken regardless of factors in the game.

Anyway, I am by no means a pro, but I seem to do alright in the micros. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If anyone wants to criticize or expand on what I've said that would be great.

Good Luck

[Kasane]

Stop looking for easy answers to broad situations and start looking at first principles. Your hands strength, villain's, position, flop texture, etc, etc...

then, instead of thinking "Ah, TPTK" I should do... you should look at "TPTK, position, pf range for villain, current range, big pot hand?, small pot?, betting for protection or value?, in what general ratio?, villain's flop calling range, c/r range, .... Best line to get to river with most value, least risk...

blah, blah, blah.

The only way you do this is by playing and posting a ton of specifics. And then stop thinking about the specifics and get to the principles of the hand. Recognize and identify what principles are involved, and you'll be able to apply that to every hand you play.

[maca9]

[ QUOTE ]
Stop looking for easy answers to broad situations and start looking at first principles. Your hands strength, villain's, position, flop texture, etc, etc...

then, instead of thinking "Ah, TPTK" I should do... you should look at "TPTK, position, pf range for villain, current range, big pot hand?, small pot?, betting for protection or value?, in what general ratio?, villain's flop calling range, c/r range, .... Best line to get to river with most value, least risk...

blah, blah, blah.

The only way you do this is by playing and posting a ton of specifics. And then stop thinking about the specifics and get to the principles of the hand. Recognize and identify what principles are involved, and you'll be able to apply that to every hand you play.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case what "principles" should we be looking at with these hands?


I totally appreciate that you can't find an easy answer to these questions but I also think LOTS of us beginners find it very hard to understand when posters reply that we are behind and should fold TPTK OR that we are ahead and should keep going. When we don't know what "prinicples" these comments are made on?

Maybe there is no answer that can ever be given to these questions becasue it is too complex and dependent on situation??

In which case are ALL winning players here in uNL using those software overlays which tell you about the player stats and as such basing decisions on that info in addition to the actual hand details?


I guess my question can be simplified even further........

You have AK in rasied pot and in position.

You Hit K on dry board. When can you and when can you not call a reraise of your pot sized bet?


I guess in lot of ways I'm trying to find out from people with experiance at this level how often a preflop raiser is reraised with a worse hand when a A,K or Q comes on flop?

Or is it simply a decision which is too random?

Sklansky says in his SSHE book at times situations when a player should generally do something in the absence of a read to the contrary. Is there not advice like this for post flop play to then build on at these levels?

How often is an over pair or TPTK ahead when reraised by someone OOP and the hero is the preflop aggressor?

Do some of the experianced guys could say that in the absence of a read they would do one or the other as a basis upon whic to apply the other stuff on top of?

Maybe i'm completely wrong and if so i apoligse in advance but I'm just trying to get some insight regarding what strength indicates postflop compared to preflop at this level and as such start the process of making more folds when behind and less when ahead........

Cheers

[maca9]

[ QUOTE ]
Generally if I'm on a table for 30 minutes or so I can get a pretty good idea for the strength of hand I need to stack off with each villain. If you see a station who is playing 50/30/8, and you have seen them lose half their stack with an under pair or middle pair, I will usually be willing to stack off to them with most TPTK or over pair type hands. On the contrary, if I have a really solid TAG at my table, playing 17/15/4, my TPTK is almost always going to need to improve by the turn/river if I'm going to be calling down big bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Orig!nal

Very helpful. How do you get their PFR and VPIP stats????

[zesi]

I'll try to answer how I play these situations against unknowns and what my thought process is:

[ QUOTE ]

1) You are pre flop agressor in Position. Checked to you an you bet 3/4 to full pot and are reraised? What difference for Drawy board and dead board?


[/ QUOTE ]

First, let me put the possible board textures into 3 broad categories:
-------------------
1) DRY - "7c Qh 2s"
basically no draws possible, no reasonable 2pair hands possible

2) draw-heavy - "Js Ts 2c" ; "Ah Ts 9s"
flushdraws, straightdraws out there.

3) dangerous - "Js Ts 9s"
3-suited; 3-connected boards where someone could already have a flush or a straight.

the reason why board texture is important is because it changes the hand-range of your opponent. If you get c/raised on a dry T-6-2 rainbow flop youre most likely beat, because his hands are: TT;66;22 or bluffs. So when you push all-in you're just getting called when you're dead.

On a draw-heavy board on the other hand he can c/r you with a lot of different flush/straight or combodraws etc. AND if you push he'll have to call with these draws too, because he's most likely getting around 2:1 on the call.

so start up Pokerstove, assign a range of hands he could have with which he'll call your push.. If you have over 50% equity then go for it and shove.

the dangerous boards are tricky because there are a lot of draws possible, but there are already a lot of made hands out there that crush you. So basically I play very carefully on these boards or give up when I meet resistance, because I'm either dead or slightly ahead.

basic conclusion:
All-In on draw-heavy flops; call or fold on dry flops. careful on dangerous flops..


[ QUOTE ]

2) You are pre flop agressor in Position. Checked to you an you bet 3/4 to full pot and are called? What plan here on turn assuming dead board? Obviously with draws on board the turn will either complete flusch etc or not so can re evaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]

On dry boards I often check-behind against unknowns. It's for potcontrol + bluff induce. if you check-behind you'll have to call most rivers, because you'll see a lot of bluffs or "valuebets" with weaker hands.

On draw-heavy boards and the draw doesnt get there you can bet again for value. If the draw does get there it's tricky against unknown opponents. If I have a redraw I check-behind because it sucks getting check-raised.


[ QUOTE ]

3) You are pre flop agressor in position. Bet into you by 1/2 to full pot - What plan here? What difference for Drawy board and dead board?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the board is dry I can calldown 3 streets because it's very often a weak made hand that folds to a raise. Without a read this is very tricky though.

Raise on drawy-boards for value, because he'll often call a raise..


I hope I could help you