General rule for being pot-committed?

[ddagt]

At what point is one pot-committed to a hand when you're fairly sure you are beat at a full-ring game? If you have over half of your stack in a pot, should you typically call an all-in bet or raise?

An example, you have 100BB, raise in late position with high PP to 5BB, get two callers. On draw-heavy flop you bet 15BB, get two callers. On blank turn you bet 45BB, and get check-raised. They could have either a set/2-pair/TPGK, but probably a set. Is a fold still OK?

Or is it best to assign a range or probable hands, and determine the pot odds, even if you have %50-%75 of your stack in the pot already?

Thanks.

[Mike Kelley]

Check the turn.

[FireStorm]

In general terms, once half your stack is in the pot, you likely cannot fold unless you have complete unimproveable air. You also should be getting it in if the odds for your draw are compensated by the enormity of the pot, even if you have a weak draw with one to come, etc.

The above example is a little extreme, obviously you cannot fold an overpair with 2/3 of your stack in and a drawing flop that did not complete on the turn.

[ElectricWaffles]

I'm not sure if this is right but generally I work it out like this.

If the pot is $150 and i've got $50 left in my stack and I think i'm good about 25% of the time or more (preferably more) than I'll be happy to stick the rest in. That's in a cash game, with freezeout tournaments I dont ever consider myself pot commited if i'm fairly sure i'm beat.

[CaptVimes]

I really don't like the term pot commitment unless I'm thinking about villains. Obviously sometimes we are getting ridiculous odds to call and will just chuck in the remainder of our stack. Rarely is this the case though. Like Waffles said, look at the odds the pot is giving you and make a determination if think you are good x% of the time against that villain. The only commitment we should have is getting our money in when we think we have the best of it.

Here's a different type of example that I hope looks a little more familiar. 100bb effective stacks. We are in the big blind and CO and Btn limp in, the small blind completes, we've been dealt QJo in the BB and check. Flop is J53 with two hearts. (4BBs) Small blind checks, you have top pair and noone was aggressive preflop so you lead for 4BB's, CO folds, Btn calls,sb folds, (12bbs) From your reads you know btn loves to play suited junk is mostly passive and will call you down with any peice of the flop plus flush draws. Villain plays straight forward and never bluffs river either.(I know this is mostly a fantasy player, but I'm trying to make a point) Turn is an 8 of clubs. You bet again for 8bbs and btn calls. (28bbs) River is 2h. You lead, because you know villain will pay off with worse made hands, for 14bbs, villain mini-raises to 28bbs giving you 5to1 to make the call. How often do we pay villain off in this spot when we are sure we are beat? It's only 14bb's, a friggin mini-raise. Think about this the next time it happens. Everytime you pay someone off 14bbs because it's such as small bet in relation to the pot and you are sure you are beat then its going to take you over 200 hands of error free poker, assuming you avg. 3 ptbb/100, to make this back.

I'm not recomending that we play weak-tight in these spots, but to make a call without analyzing the situation is wrong.

[GiantBuddha]

It's better to think about whether you want to commit yourself before betting, and then size your bet with an idea in mind of how you'll respond to a raise.

[phydaux]

PNL is all about this. Nessasary reading for an NL cash game specialist, IMO.

I'll try to summerise, but I'm sure I won't do it justice.

After you have put 1/3 of your stack in the pot, it is rarely correct to fold.

Once 1/3 of your stack has gone in, if you make a pot-side bet then a pot-size re-raise will put you all-in. You will now be offered 2:1 to call, and with cards to come you will rarely be a 2:1 dog.

But just because it is rarely correct to fold once 1/3 of your stack in in the pot, that's doesn't mean that calling every all-in bet or raise is the best play. Much better is to have a plan for commitment before you get 1/3 of your stack in the pot.

10% of your stack is the point where you have to seriously plan your hand around commitment. That's because once 10% of your stack is in the pot, a pot-size bet will usually bring you to the 1/3 point. And once 1/3 of your stack is in the pot, it's usually wrong to fold if you have cards still to come.

So once 10% of your stack is in the pot, you need to start thinking "If I make a reasonable size bet and I'm called or raised, am I willing to go all the way with this hand?" If so, then you bet - You have decided you are commited. If not, then you use pot control or fold, because you are not commited.

Either way, the point is you decided early, when only 10% of your money was in the pot.

This illistrates why the Rule of 5 & 10 is so awesome.

So how do you decide if you're commited once you reach the 10% threashold? That is based on your holding and effective stack size.

And that's as far as I'm going, otherwise I'd have to retype the entire middle part of the book.

Get thee to the bookstore and buy PNL!!!!!

[ddagt]

Sounds like the consensus is when I get into a situation where more than 1/3-1/2 of my stack is in the pot, compare the pot odds to the percentage of time I think my hand is (or will eventually be) good.

But even before that, try to avoid the situation by pot control, blocking bets, etc.

Thanks for the help!