I defend with Q2o

jt1 · #1 08-30-2007, 08:57 PM

I went on tilt last night and combined with my ignorance of a proper bb defense range, I find my self HU against a LAG who steals 45% of the time with pair of twos, queen kicker on an Ace high flop.

Full Tilt 5/10 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

Now after a little study, I now know that Q7o should be my lowest off suit queen unless against a maniac which may allow me to defend with Q5o. Is that about right?

However, Q2s (as well as A2s,K2s and even 32s) seems to be a proper defending hand. Which means I need to learn how to play with a pair of twos oop. I think it's important to raise as some point since villain will always have 6 outs. Do you agree with that?

When both the ace and 2 flopped, my plan was to check/call down but once a gutshot came in, I thought that I had 9 outs and villain had at least 6 outs if I was ahead so I needed to raise. Do you agree with that?

The river check/call was due to the fact that a King was in villains range as well as two spades and any Queen and he likely would have bet them. Given that, is a c/c okay?

shat4brains · #2 08-31-2007, 12:25 AM

i think the defend is pretty bad but i may be wrong i think the river is a very easy fold i cant think of 1 hand that you beat.

this is why i dont defend stuff like that, gets you into really funkey postflop spots.

in this spot i would fold turn because the raise is so pointless because he isnt folding here like ever and u got bottom pair raise is bad. please correct me if im wrong but i think that u would be doing yourself a favor by folding preflop and avoiding these yucky spots.

yellowjack · #3 08-31-2007, 01:14 AM

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Now after a little study, I now know that Q7o should be my lowest off suit queen unless against a maniac which may allow me to defend with Q5o. Is that about right?

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sounds good

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However, Q2s (as well as A2s,K2s and even 32s) seems to be a proper defending hand. Which means I need to learn how to play with a pair of twos oop. I think it's important to raise as some point since villain will always have 6 outs. Do you agree with that?

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standard i would go down to is Q5s, so against him Q3s or so. i dont think the c/r on the turn is the right way to play the hand. we never get him to fold anything due to the broadway straight draw, and are put in a tough spot on the river. i dont think you always need to raise a weak made hand to fold out hands all the time. vs some opponents there is a higher EV in check-calling the river instead of trying to get him to fold before the river, because they bluff far too much on the river.

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When both the ace and 2 flopped, my plan was to check/call down but once a gutshot came in, I thought that I had 9 outs and villain had at least 6 outs if I was ahead so I needed to raise. Do you agree with that?

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no, he is still correctly peeling with 6 outs (although not against your range, just this hand), and thats only when you're ahead. here's something off the top of my head for equity vs his range:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

20,944 games 0.031 secs 675,612 games/sec

Board: Td 2s As Jh
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.503% 37.78% 00.73% 7912 152.00 { Qh2d }
Hand 1: 61.497% 60.77% 00.73% 12728 152.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J6s+, T7s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, 54s, 43s, A2o+, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o, 87o }

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The river check/call was due to the fact that a King was in villains range as well as two spades and any Queen and he likely would have bet them. Given that, is a c/c okay?

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yes, the c/c is ok. its a very bad spot, but necessary. its made worse by bloating the pot on the turn OOP.

imitation · #4 08-31-2007, 01:38 AM

i make this defence sometimes, the turn is just horrible but, i call down from the flop.

kimchi · #5 08-31-2007, 01:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
However, Q2s (as well as A2s,K2s and even 32s) seems to be a proper defending hand. Which means I need to learn how to play with a pair of twos oop. I think it's important to raise as some point since villain will always have 6 outs. Do you agree with that?

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I'd defend against this guy with Q2s, but I'm speculating on the slim chance of a big pot with a flush. Q2o isn't speculative and so if I flop a pair of 2s and nothing else (no flush draw, b/door something even) improves me on the turn, then I'm probably done with the hand.

If this guy has a wide stealing range, then I'll problably want to see the SD as cheaply as possible and let him continue to bluff (if that's what he's doing). If the turn or river look to improve any of his draws, then I'd probably fold into a small(ish) pot.

Oink · #6 08-31-2007, 04:25 AM

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i make this defence sometimes, the turn is just horrible but, i call down from the flop.

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Against a LAG with ATSB of 45% Q2o is close. Its prolly a muck but it has decent eq.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.571% 35.22% 01.35% 344331271 13234411.00 { Qc2d }
Hand 1: 63.429% 62.08% 01.35% 606925491 13234411.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, A2o+, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }

I'd definetely call Q4o here.

jt1 · #7 08-31-2007, 04:53 AM

The pot is 3bb. Give me a break! If you can't play well in these pots then just hang it up. Sorry if I'm being too hard on myself but I ought to know that if the pot is small I gain more by letting villain bluff me than I gain from charging him extra when he's behind.

Thank you yellowjack for your support of my river play. I'm not sure I would have made that call a few months ago (I still lost. He had A7).

And I agree with you kimchi. There's no shame in folding the best hand in a small pot. Obviously, you don't want to do it all the time but it's better than bloating the pot and being forced to make a crying call.

timoK · #8 08-31-2007, 05:00 AM

the point is:
is villain a showdown monkey?

if he is a LAG and sees also a lot rivers than you should def not defend with hands which have like no showdown value.

and also remember you are out fo position. if you want to make a move and you check/raise he might 3-bet with a wide range with as lil as a pure bluff or mid pair (and of course all better hands)

sharpie · #9 08-31-2007, 05:30 AM

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i make this defence sometimes, the turn is just horrible but, i call down from the flop.

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Against a LAG with ATSB of 45% Q2o is close. Its prolly a muck but it has decent eq.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.571% 35.22% 01.35% 344331271 13234411.00 { Qc2d }
Hand 1: 63.429% 62.08% 01.35% 606925491 13234411.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, A2o+, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }

I'd definetely call Q4o here.

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I think it's playability is just too shiddy. Some of that equity comes from winning with Q hi unimproved, or spiking a pair on the turn or river when we can't profitably peel.

danzasmack · #10 08-31-2007, 10:13 AM

One time, i read a post from a great player that said "dont defend X2o". It's funny like, i'll know how to play certain spots, but when i'm in the BB here and this guy raises, i remember that post, no thinking allowed. Pretty funny stuff.