Hand analysis please. How bad is it Doc?

[Jobo]

Ok, so here’s the setup: I’m still a rookie hold’em player. Usually I play micro-stake full-ring limit games. My success there is touch and go but not enough to build a bankroll quickly lol. So the other night I decided to test out the NL micros to see what they were like. I expected the larger pots compared to similar limit blind-levels, but I don’t think I applied enough muscle in the hands I was involved in. See, I assumed that micro-blinds still meant relatively micro-betting too. I’m guessing I was wrong because I could not protect my hand with raises and I think I got bluffed out of some good hands by bigger-than-I-thought-was-necessary bets/raises.

In the hand-example I show here, I tried to knock-out the weak callers with raises and then defend my top-pair/weak kicker with raises. The raises did not deter the villain, and I had earlier decided he was an off-and-calling station who caught a few big hands on the river as rewards for calling to a showdown. Though, I had seen him raise before with big cards… So when he stuck around I put him on a second or third pair, or at best top-pair with a weak kicker like myself. He showed no aggression and was slow to call my raises.

By the Turn we were one card off a straight, still no aggression from the villain, but I was still worried he might have completed with a J or paired his second card or something. I bet larger, and he still just calls, maybe sitting on a straight waiting for me to bet out again on the river?

When the river J hit my thoughts were still focused on him starting out with the smaller pair, making 2-pair or a K-high straight by the turn. I figured well crap, I can’t beat the board, but if he has what I think he’s got, neither can he. Which means a split-pot at best. I decided that I would represent an A-high straight with an all-in bet, figuring best-case is I finally scare him off, worst-case he calls for a split-pot. He bet out for the first time in the hand, and I was sure that he reached the same idea I did, but a used a smaller bet. Maybe I could still scare him off if he knew an A could be in my hole-cards. Then my head nearly exploded after his call, and the showdown. The mofo rivered another victory with a very poor starting hand…

Aside from telling me I’m a donk for raising K8s on the button, (cuz maybe I was, not sure there either LOL), could anyone tell me if I played this hand right, even if it was a bit reckless? Did the villain play correctly?? If he did, I need to learn some new tricks. I find hands like this in limit all the time, where players refuse to be scared off crappy cards against pre-flop raises, even three-bets, and then no matter how heavy the artillery being leveled at them they proceed to call down to the river, striking gold far too often.

I lose so many big pots when I’m sure that I’m not behind when I start firing. Usually my starting hands or flops are pretty strong, but things go down-hill against the call-stations who hit so often on the turn and river. 2-pair gets beat by a river full, a straight get back-door flushed, a full-boat pairs the board again to get beat by a bigger full-boat, etc., etc..

I’d appreciate any critique, and explanations about the differences between limit and no-limit. Thanks!

PokerStars Game #11656375859: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2007/08/23 - 21:51:08 (ET)
Table 'Setebos' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: NuckleBerry6 ($4.72 in chips) Seat 5: Big Jobo ($2.98 in chips)
Tiny Monkey: posts small blind $0.01
NBCT99: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Big Jobo [Ks 8s]
OldCardboard: calls $0.02 Mike Parsons: calls $0.02 NuckleBerry6: calls $0.02 MachJ: folds Klytus: folds highwayman2: folds Big Jobo: raises $0.04 to $0.06 Tiny Monkey: calls $0.05 NBCT99: folds OldCardboard: folds Mike Parsons: calls $0.04 NuckleBerry6: calls $0.04
*** FLOP *** [9h Kd Qh]
Tiny Monkey: checks Mike Parsons: checks NuckleBerry6: checks Big Jobo: bets $0.14 Tiny Monkey: folds Ridgeline77 joins the table at seat #8 Mike Parsons: folds NuckleBerry6: calls $0.14
*** TURN *** [9h Kd Qh] [Td]
NuckleBerry6: checks Big Jobo: bets $0.20 NuckleBerry6: calls $0.20
*** RIVER *** [9h Kd Qh Td] [Jc]
NuckleBerry6: bets $0.42 Big Jobo: raises $2.16 to $2.58 and is all-in
NuckleBerry6: calls $2.16
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Big Jobo: shows [Ks 8s] (a straight, Nine to King) NuckleBerry6: shows [7s Ah] (a straight, Ten to Ace) NuckleBerry6 collected $5.82 from pot

[Teddie]

Goodluck getting opinions on this without converting it.

[Jobo]

forgive me, but I'm brand new to 2+2 and have no idea what you're saying. What I've posted is easy enough to understand, I hope. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[RapidEvolution]

You should definitely be folding this pre-flop. I've been at tables like this you either need to fold, or raise to 1.5 2x the current pot to get people to fold...and sometimes that STILL doesn't work. Raising to 6 cents ONLY gets people to put more money in (which would be good if you had a great hand (which you don't) and even if you had a high pair, you DON'T wanna play it against 123,000 players.

On the flop...(which is a dangerous flop...especially since everyone and their mother is there) you either need to check and fold (safe) or bet the pot and pray you're not up against a higher king and that the people with draws fold...(which they probably won't)

I can't see the pot size, but I'll assume he's not getting odds to hit his straight, given your bets...but the river should be a big clue..he's been passively calling the flop and turn and suddenly wants to go all-in?

I count $1.02 in the pot when he pushes and I think that risking $2.16 to split the pot is bad.

All of this trouble would've been avoided if you would've folded pre-flop. K-8s is mediocre at best, and certainly not what you want to be playing against a large field. FOLD PRE-FLOP! (You will hear this a lot in this thread)

Also, use a hand converter, please? It makes the info much easier to read as Teddie's already said. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If you find yourself playing a lot of hands like K-8 suited, start folding them. Results will improve even if you do only this. Opening hand selection is a KEY factor in improving your play. Best of luck to you!

[Albert Moulton]

[ QUOTE ]
You should definitely be folding this pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a hard time reading the hand history, but if he's on the button with 3 limpers in front of him and >100bb effective stacks, limping is better than either raising or folding.

Sure, it's a mediocre hand, but it could turn into trip kings, or trip 8s, or the 2nd nut flush. As long as he doesn't overplay TPWK or 2-pair or even trip kings post flop, then it's good to limp with a variety of hands, including Kxs if he's ON THE BUTTON. I'd fold even in the CO, however.

However, raising was bad. He just builds a bigger pot with a really weak hand.

On the flop, if he bets at all, it needs to be more. Bet the pot, or just less. But then I'd pretty much give up if called or raised. I wouldn't have played such a speculative hand on the button to play a big pot with TPWK. Instead, I would have played for a chance to steal a smaller pot, or hit a cheap flush that might pay off on the turn or river. So, if a flop bet didn't steal and I can't make a flush, then I'd be done with TPWK.

On the turn, the small bet was worse than checking behind. It doesn't have any fold equity, and just opens the betting up to a reraise if villain is sandbagging.

On the river, the OP had a case of FPS by representing the ace. Just call the river and plan to chop the pot. The raise was ill concieved, especially since AhXh are certainly in villain's range given how he played the hand.

As a general comment, NL is mostly about implied odd and reverse implied odds. Playing a hand like TPWK for a big pot, even in position, is just spew. Big pots require big hands. TPWK is a very small hand that should generally go to show down only in very small pots.

[Jobo]

thanks so much for the critique, fellas. it's difficult keeping my Pre-flop hand selection tight sometimes because the limit micro's i sit in with are full of villains playing just about any 2 cards. i'll often loosen up with cards like K10o or that K8s and come in with a raise to thin the field a bit. but until i can afford poker tracker all i can do is wade through my hand histories. for all i know some of my choices could be trickling away $$ with a negative EV i'm not aware of yet.

as for this hand specifically, believe it or not, everything was happening as i had hoped except for the villain who stuck in there. everyone else folded out, and lord only know why i didn't think "Ax" at any time. i was so sure he was TPWK like me, or worse. LOL. shows how much i need to learn, thats fer sure!

so, i'll tighten up some more, especially when dabbling in NL, and i'll also try to learn a bit more about NL betting. i didn't realize my bets were too small to intimidate because i felt that in a .01/.02 game, anything over .04 must be a HUGE bet at that level.

and as fer a 'hand converter' ? first i've heard of that, but if it makes reading a DL'd hand history easier on the eyes, i'm all for it! i'll look into acquiring/using one.

but... if i switch to NL more often, what's this i hear about Hyper Aggressive, Loose Aggressive, and Tight Agressive? Sklansky's book on small-stakes limit hold'em doesn't mention playing styles like these...