Call or Fold?

[PantsOnFire]

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That being said, why would big blind push in that manner if he didn't have a J and he had one more person behind him?

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Why would a guy with a J make such a large overbet? A ridiculously large overbet.

[PantsOnFire]

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...besides Jx, he may also have JK or JQ (some people limp with JK or JQ) which while doesn't have you drawing dead, you're pretty much way underdog.

I just feel like the read isn't good enough and with one player behind you to make a call here.

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I see you haven't made many posts here. You seem to have made this post to get agreement and confirmation that you made a good fold.

That may be true but when you take away all points of view and assess them.

Just to make my final opinion clear, I am not saying call here because you have trip Js and can't fold such a hand. I am saying that the overbet is so ridiculous that lots of the time the player could have nothing or AA. There's no need to resist my opinion or agree with, but since you asked thousands of 2+2ers a question, just embrace all the possible answers you could get.

And one more thing, why don't you add more detail to your post, assume it's an MTT and post in the small stakes MTT forum. There are lots of good players there who will give you more opinions.

[kevxu315]

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"I can tell you this much... its never OK to open limp J4 on the button."

What if you're in a tourney and theres only 3 players left with blinds ever so increasing (wherein you prob only have so many hands left to play). You would say you NEVER would limp with J4 early pos? NEVER is such a strong w0rd my friend.

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I'm not a tournament player, I'll let one of them answer for sure. But I'm pretty sure a short stacked situation with increasing blinds would make it a bigger mistake to limp J4, not a smaller one.

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You're not short stacked. As i posted in the beginning of the thread everyone is about even stacked at the table.

[kevxu315]

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...besides Jx, he may also have JK or JQ (some people limp with JK or JQ) which while doesn't have you drawing dead, you're pretty much way underdog.

I just feel like the read isn't good enough and with one player behind you to make a call here.

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I see you haven't made many posts here. You seem to have made this post to get agreement and confirmation that you made a good fold.

That may be true but when you take away all points of view and assess them.

Just to make my final opinion clear, I am not saying call here because you have trip Js and can't fold such a hand. I am saying that the overbet is so ridiculous that lots of the time the player could have nothing or AA. There's no need to resist my opinion or agree with, but since you asked thousands of 2+2ers a question, just embrace all the possible answers you could get.

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True, that is a fair assessment. I am merely saying that I find it surprising that you are so focused on the all-in player that you forget theres a player behind you (that initited the 70% pot size bet).

The real reason why i fold is not entirely because of the big blind but because of the poor read on the small blind.

[SaErDnaW]

J4 is evil. No doubt about it.

I say as the others: Fold preflop! If you folded this preflop you didn't have to ask this question. Limping in with hands like these makes it difficult for you to play postflop. That's one of the reasons you should fold. Poker is a difficult game with many things to consider and think about, there is no need to make it any harder by playing bad hands.

I understand you are interested in what to do after the flop, but the initial problem is the preflop play. You wouldn't have a hard time playing this hand, if you didn't call in the first place.

[PantsOnFire]

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I am merely saying that I find it surprising that you are so focused on the all-in player that you forget theres a player behind you (that initited the 70% pot size bet).

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Yeah, sorry I didn't address SB but by his absence in my opinions you can infer that I don't consider him a threat.

They both can't have jacks, that's for sure. So if we are up against another J with a better kicker, and if it's SB, BB is not our concern anyways. (if you are up against Jx and xx in the same hand, then man it's not your day statisically-wise).

Basically, you are worried about a J with a better kicker and xxxJJ. Like I said, if they have both between them, that's just unlucky. Thus, I conclude it's not worth worrying about both of them. I would fully expect SB to fold here.

[klezmaniac]

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Assuming this is a tournament setting vs a cash game would you guys play this hand differently?

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I'll never play this in a cash game; and in a tourney only with an M of about 1.5.

--klez