PNL Study Group Day 4: Commitment - Page 4

Disconnected · #31 08-23-2007, 04:21 PM

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Just to make sure I have this right. We can be committed if we feel that a combination of our FE and our equity make it profitable to get AI, right?

Being committed isn't as narrowly focused as being +EV when called it is just being +EV when your stack hits the center of the table. Correctamundo?

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Correct.

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I believe there is a line at the very bottom of the commitment threshold chapter that mislead me a little bit about this. I believe it says that you are committed when you expect to make money against your opponents calling range when you are AI.

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I think in this case you are 'happily committed'.

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I am going to be committed way more often now. Somehow I got in my head that only am committed when I +EV when called.

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Actually, I thought that you were only committed when +EV if called. However, one of the major exceptions to putting in chips when not committed is when you are stealing (i.e., you have a large amount of FE).

For example, you count on a significant amount of FE when making a semi-bluff, and that semi-bluff can be absolutely the right play. But if your opponent calls your semi-bluff, you are unhappy, therefore not committed.

WarhammerIIC · #32 08-23-2007, 04:26 PM

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I am going to be committed way more often now. Somehow I got in my head that only am committed when I +EV when called.

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Well, in general, when you're thinking about getting your money in for value, you're going to assume that you get called. But, yeah, if you factor in fold equity, you can of course "commit" more often. This really falls under the "exceptions", though... you're making a big bet as a semi-bluff. You really don't want to get called here, but there is enough overall equity to make the play.

Onaflag · #33 08-23-2007, 04:27 PM

I have nothing to add to the current discussion, but just want to make an observation about the example on page 59 and what I learned from it. It was easy to skim over the example and not internalize what it was trying to teach.

100BB deep. You see a minraised flop with 4 others for a $25 pot and flop a set of 9s in position. Nice. Turn brings 3 to the flush and a couple straight possibilities. Mr. Tighty moves in for his remaining 85BB into a 12.5BB pot.

This is a situation where I'm sure I'm bleeding money. I get married to a flopped set and make a pissed off call thinking I'm beating his bluff or at least drawing to win. Many times I'll be OOP making it even tougher since I likely lead making the pot that much bigger.

This example illustrates the importance of position, the value of being in with a full stack (assuming 100BB max), and how much tougher the decision would be with a bigger pot as would be the case in a 50BB max game or buying in short. I also think I learned something about playing deep stacks in this example even though it is not about that.

I think I'll ponder this example a while changing bet amounts, buyin amounts, etc. to see how my decisions should change given different conditions.

Sorry, my post probably doesn't warrant discussion, but I just love the book and this thread.

Onaflag.........

QTip · #34 08-23-2007, 06:17 PM

Here's a hand I that came along where I think some of the chapter applies:

Villain was semi-tight and too aggressive.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($22.80)
MP1 ($81.05)
MP2 ($195)
CO ($134.80)
Button ($182.20)
SB ($333.05)
Hero ($100)
UTG ($321.25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $2, 3 folds, CO calls $2, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($8) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $5, UTG folds, CO raises to $12, SB folds, Hero calls $7.

Turn: ($32) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $19, Hero calls $19.

River: ($70) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $40, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $70

Flop, obviously, I'm committed, I want to start building a pot, so I bet. I get raised by this villain, and I'm wanting to get the money in as soon as possible according to to our text. However, we don't just push and try to get creative. I feel like if I get too aggro here, I'm going to blow him away. I have a vey tight image at the table as I've been card dead.

Turn, I considered crai here; however, I think he would find it very difficult to call that given the turn card if he just had a naked ace. Given the size of his turn bet, I thought it would leave just enough behind to make a river push callable. Looking back at it, I think the play was to crai all in here before a 3rd club or straight card falls and slows him down. However, I didn't.

River. That sucks. My commitment plan just changed.

bozzer · #35 08-23-2007, 06:27 PM

yep. how about this example that happened 5 minutes ago?

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.15/$0.30 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $30.30
BB: $32.05
Hero (UTG): $101.10
CO: $51.80
BTN: $10.75

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 Players)
Hero raises to $1.20, CO calls $1.20, 3 folds

Flop: ($2.85) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $2.10, CO calls $2.10

Turn: ($7.05) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $4.65, CO calls $4.65

River: ($16.35) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks

QTip · #36 08-23-2007, 06:36 PM

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yep. how about this example that happened 5 minutes ago?

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.15/$0.30 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $30.30
BB: $32.05
Hero (UTG): $101.10
CO: $51.80
BTN: $10.75

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 Players)
Hero raises to $1.20, CO calls $1.20, 3 folds

Flop: ($2.85) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $2.10, CO calls $2.10

Turn: ($7.05) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $4.65, CO calls $4.65

River: ($16.35) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks

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Yeah. The stuff in this chapter blows.
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

zaphod · #37 08-23-2007, 07:57 PM

Question: What is your plan for AK with an SPR of 4 after you miss the flop HU vs different type of opponents? What is your plan in postition and out of position?

threads13 · #38 08-24-2007, 09:50 AM

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I am going to be committed way more often now. Somehow I got in my head that only am committed when I +EV when called.

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Well, in general, when you're thinking about getting your money in for value, you're going to assume that you get called. But, yeah, if you factor in fold equity, you can of course "commit" more often. This really falls under the "exceptions", though... you're making a big bet as a semi-bluff. You really don't want to get called here, but there is enough overall equity to make the play.

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Absolutely. An example would be a combo draw on the flop if you get rationally 3-bet AI. You are conditionally committed.

Matt Flynn · #39 08-30-2007, 09:29 AM

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Question: What is your plan for AK with an SPR of 4 after you miss the flop HU vs different type of opponents? What is your plan in postition and out of position?

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make a c-bet if that makes sense in each situation. default is to c-bet, but you don't want to c-bet after every raise unless your opponents just won't fire back without the goods.

runway model · #40 08-31-2007, 11:10 AM

Matt, Sunny

I'm confused about how to plan in situations where:

1) We are at the commitment threshold
2) We don't want to commit
3) We prob have the best hand
4) Villain has lots of outs

eg
Hero opens to 4BB in the CO with A9s, and the Button, who has TAG-ish stats and a stack of just over 40BB, calls. The blinds fold.

Flop is K93 rainbow, so we have 2nd pair.

- I don't really want commit 40BB on second pair
- But any bet or call on the flop is going to put 1/3 or so of eff stacks in.
- I don't want to fold yet
- If villain has hands like QJ, QT or JT, then these have 10 outs. So i'd prefer to avoid giving free cards

How should we think about planning hands like this? Thanks