IS it ok to stack off here with TPTK?

Tryptamean · #1 08-22-2007, 10:30 PM

no reads, so I guess these guys have not gotten my attention by playing super loose or super retarded

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($49.85)
Hero ($49.90)
BB ($48.50)
UTG ($33.65)
UTG+1 ($36.35)
MP1 ($28.05)
MP2 ($7.75)
CO ($99.10)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP1 raises to $1, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.75, BB calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.50.

Flop: ($4) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets $1.5, Hero raises to $4.5, BB folds, UTG raises to $9.5, MP1 folds, Hero?

Surf · #2 08-22-2007, 11:56 PM

No.

First off, we need a plan before we raise the flop. In general if we are going to raise here then we need to fold to further action, which means we should know whether our opponents are capable of semibluffing a big draw (which will make us fold the best hand). Calling is appealing if our opponents are trigger-happy with draws because we can see a turn card cheaper where the multiway nature of the pot will often force them to reveal the strength of their hand.

Against 90% of the poker population utg's field-trapping check-min3bet is quite strong, his hand range is something like : straights, sets, 2prs, monster draws, etc. Many players will just coldcall the draws, he'd have to be pretty aggro to c/r them. Equity-wise, we are totally hosed.

Caveat: There are some players (it's important to know who they are!) will do stupid things with 1pr on the flop, like check-minraise QT to "find out where they are at." Against these types of players it may be necessary to call the flop and fold to heavy turn action, since most will reveal their hand on the turn by betting like 1/3 pot or checking. This is a rare breed of player and your default line should not reflect an adjustment to it, I just wanted to cover all the bases.

Surf

Neko · #3 08-23-2007, 12:03 AM

nice post by surf. This is not a place you want to stack off. I'd also be 3 betting pf.

Tryptamean · #4 08-23-2007, 02:55 AM

hm that makes sense. I figured that was probably the case. It seems pretty fashionable these days for people to get aggro with their flush draws, but that is the best I can hope for I suppose. And, as you say, unlikely due to the multi-wayness....

I still seem to totally overvalue 1 pair hands. On at least a couple occasions, I think I've made people fold better hands when I thought I was value-shoving. Basically meaning that I have no idea where I'm at during hands. I'm starting to realize how narrow people's range is when they are betting big.

Surf · #5 08-23-2007, 12:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hm that makes sense. I figured that was probably the case. It seems pretty fashionable these days for people to get aggro with their flush draws, but that is the best I can hope for I suppose. And, as you say, unlikely due to the multi-wayness....

I still seem to totally overvalue 1 pair hands. On at least a couple occasions, I think I've made people fold better hands when I thought I was value-shoving. Basically meaning that I have no idea where I'm at during hands. I'm starting to realize how narrow people's range is when they are betting big.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it took me awhile to adjust to that too. Honestly, just assume anyone who raises and then bombs the turn is a nitty set-miner until you get enough info to prove otherwise, people (at < 3/6) very rarely run big bluffs, and they are incredibly rare multiway.

There's a bit more shenanigans going on at 3/6+, but even there it's not as prevalent as it feels / I sometimes think.

Surf