Need help beating my home game

[Flopz]

(Mods: Please move if not in the right forum)

I play poker once a week (SNG style) with a pretty wide range of players. We’re usually 8 players. Here is how we breakdown…

Me: I consider myself average to above average when playing with people who know what they’re doing. I play my cards for the most part, but when I get a few chips in front of me, I try to get fancy and end up spewing. I commit cardinal sins like trying to bluff weak players and let myself get pushed around by bluffers.

Player # 2: Good player who knows how to play the player/situation no matter what cards he’s holding. Hard to bet off a pot if he has a read.

Player # 3 : Almost identical to # 2, except he folds a little more.

Player # 4 : Type of player who plays nothing but premium hands. Not very creative.

Player # 5 : Good player who only plays his cards (no reading skills at all). If he’s got a piece of the board (I’d say anywhere from 2nd pair to draws), he’ll be there to the end.

Player # 6 : Weird player. He’s a calling station who will stay if he’s got a piece. He’ll often take flyers by calling decent size pre-flop raises with crap.

Player # 7: Calling station who will call pre-flop with a wide range of cards (most of the time with hands like paint + rag)

Player # 8: Wild, wild player. Our game has a rebuy period (until the 4th level) then switches to a freeze-out. This guy loves to gamble and has the money to support his style. He’ll go all-in with crap and will call all-ins with crap. If you get into a hand with this guy, you know it will most likely cost you all your chips. His only move is…3x raise pre-flop…pot on the flop and all-in on the turn or river. Totally unpredictable.

I can hold my own for most of the game, but usually succumb to players 2, 5 and 7 on a pretty consistent basis. I just can’t seem to crack these guys.

When I try to make a play, # 2 always seems to read it and will always either check/raise me or re-raise my decent size bluff/semi-bluff bet.

#5, who stays when he has a piece, will call any bet I make. If I check, he bets like 75% of the time. I don’t know how many times I’ve lost to this guy when my straights and flushes don’t get there only to find out he had like TPNK or 2nd pair decent kicker. We keep a running total of points (based on where we finish) and he’s consistently at the top but I still think he has no clue as to what he’s doing.

# 7 is poker players worst nightmare, Like I said, he’s a calling station and limps in with crap like paint + rag. He’s not creative and can’t be pushed off. I don’t know how many times I’ve had TPTK and lost when he hits two-pair with his J10’s or Q8, etc…

I would consider myself a LAG when I hit and a Loose-passive when I’m trying to get my chips back after a bad beat (which happens pretty often with these guys.)

Any advice on how to beat these guys?


I’ve never made a post like this, so let me know if need me to add anything

[Khabbi]

I play in a game just like yours. I find that if I remain patient I yeild better results.

In my game, my players don't really pick up on weak play (yours might) so if they show any aggression and you have a marginal hand you might want to lay it down more often.

Your analysis of yourself was pretty much the same as me. I find that I get killed tyring to make the same "plays" that work on-line that just don't pull any weight in my game.

Coles Notes: Play Tight solid poker and don't make any moves.

[crookdimwit]

Sounds like you've already identified your problem.

Avoid fancy-play syndrome... Don't get clever. Play solid, TAG poker and get your chips in with value... Don't bluff calling stations.

[FireStorm]

Play TAG, get a lot in preflop with big hands, you will be called when you're dominant, believe me. Shove if necessary. Valuetown flopped sets and flushes to holy hell. If the structure is bad and doesn't allow for much postflop play, try and talk the host into changing it to a deeper stacked game.

Out of curiosity ----> "His only move is…3x raise pre-flop…pot on the flop and all-in on the turn or river. Totally unpredictable." <---- This seems rather contradictory, it would appear that he's TOTALLY predictable.

[Flopz]

[ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity ----> "His only move is…3x raise pre-flop…pot on the flop and all-in on the turn or river. Totally unpredictable." <---- This seems rather contradictory, it would appear that he's TOTALLY predictable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I see that it sounds bad, but I meant that his holdings are unpredicatble. He could have a made hand or he could be trying to buy the pot after a missed draw or he could simply be pushing with nothing in order to rebuy.

Thanks for all the help guys

[pfapfap]

It looks like these are tourneys, and I wrote most of this with a cash game mentality. It's a lot eaiser to handle the variance of this kind of game when you can rebuy all night long, so perhaps suggest this crowd try a non-tournamnet night from time to time?

Your game sounds similar to mine, except that we have a couple of more of #4 and #7. Profit, profit, profit.

[ QUOTE ]
I play my cards for the most part, but when I get a few chips in front of me, I try to get fancy and end up spewing.

[/ QUOTE ]
Slight error on both of these. You need to consider who is in the pot with you and adjust your betting accordingly. And stop getting fancy yourself. You'll make more by value betting strong hands and lose less by not bluffing people who can't be bluffed. Don't worry if you think someone's bluffing you. Practice pot management and you'll be able to get away from hands. If they're going to keep bluffing you, they'll do it when you have the nuts, too.

[ QUOTE ]
Player # 2: Good player who knows how to play the player/situation no matter what cards he’s holding. Hard to bet off a pot if he has a read. When I try to make a play, # 2 always seems to read it and will always either check/raise me or re-raise my decent size bluff/semi-bluff bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
A player to avoid until you improve. If he's to your left, he'll raise pots you enter and try to get heads-up. If he's to your right, he'll be able to make moves last after your action. Once I get a bead on how such a player plays against me, I'm comfortable with him on either side, but it's safest to just sit across the table, I think. Don't give him any sort of positional advantage on you, keep it balanced throughout, play only premium hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Player # 3 : Almost identical to # 2, except he folds a little more.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you know how to get him to fold, sit to his right.

[ QUOTE ]
Player # 4 : Type of player who plays nothing but premium hands. Not very creative.

[/ QUOTE ]
How is he post-flop? If he folds when he misses, get in pots with him and bet any 9-high flops. Fold if he raises his set or overpair at you.

[ QUOTE ]
Player # 5 : Good player who only plays his cards (no reading skills at all). If he’s got a piece of the board (I’d say anywhere from 2nd pair to draws), he’ll be there to the end. #5, who stays when he has a piece, will call any bet I make. If I check, he bets like 75% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fabulous. Isolate and profit. When you have draws, make blocking bets so that you get proper odds. When you have big hands, let him bet them for you about half the time.

[ QUOTE ]
Player # 6 : Weird player. He’s a calling station who will stay if he’s got a piece. He’ll often take flyers by calling decent size pre-flop raises with crap.

[/ QUOTE ]
Pay attention to how others react to him. Especially pay attention to people who raise into him. Try re-raising big after he calls, see what happens. This person is exploitable.

[ QUOTE ]
Player # 7: Calling station who will call pre-flop with a wide range of cards (most of the time with hands like paint + rag). # 7 is poker players worst nightmare, Like I said, he’s a calling station and limps in with crap like paint + rag. He’s not creative and can’t be pushed off.

[/ QUOTE ]
This guy is a poker player's wet dream. Play premium against him. Try to figure out what his favorite paint is (a guy at our game loves any queen, so if the flop is Qxx and he seems happy with betting, watch out). Slow down on the river if you only have one pair.

[ QUOTE ]
Player # 8: Wild, wild player.

[/ QUOTE ]
You need to be willing to die in order to live. Isolate this person as much as possible during the rebuy period. Try to get a better sense of his range, and what sorts of cards he plays depending on how many are in the pot, how big raises have been, etc. I have one guy who will push with nearly anything (QT seems to be a favorite, but he'll play ATC), and I can re-push with a rather wide range. However, if he re-raises me all-in, he has a big hand.


Overall, you need to practice reading people and using their tendencies against them. Don't try to master everybody at once, just focus on one person and try to pick up some stuff. Mannerisms and twitches are good, but betting patterns are better. Listen to how they talk when they're in a pot. If you're heads-up, ask some questions and see how they react. One guy I know will start giggling if he's bluffing when you ask him if he has (insert strong hand here).

Since this is a tournament, you need to play rather tighter than you would in a cash game, with the exception of the rebuy period. That's the time you want to get a lot of chips on the table. The more comfortable you are with your edge in the game, the more willing you should be able to do this. You want to avoid the good players and re-raise to isolate the bad players. Top pair is not that strong of a hand in NL, so don't fall in love with it. Don't chase draws without the implied stack odds behind. Don't build big pots with small hands. Slow down on the turn and river if you're not sure where you are. DO NOT BLUFF WEAK PLAYERS.

[Rottersod]

Good advice Pfap. I'd add that against #2 he has to be willing to call or 3 bet the re-raises with his semi-bluffs and show them, especially during the rebuy period. Try sitting on his right so he'll be the last action to the re-raise and get #2 to respect his raises a bit more.

[Albert Moulton]

Read the Harrington on Hold'em books and the new book on SnG tournament strategy.

Sounds like you may not be adjusting for "M" properly as blinds and antes increase relative to effective stacks.

Other than that, don't bluff the calling station. Try to have position on the tricky TAGs and LAGs by sitting to their left. Put the tight guy who plays his cards on your left, since he's less likely to steal or reraise unless you're beaten, and he'll fold more to continuation bets.

Play tight aggressive early in the tournament. Adjust to blinds and ante increases correctly and more quickly than your opponents. And don't do this...

[ QUOTE ]
I would consider myself a LAG when I hit and a Loose-passive when I’m trying to get my chips back after a bad beat (which happens pretty often with these guys.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Be a TAG all through the early stages of the tournament. Don't donk off your chips with LAG play, especially OOP with medium-sized stacks early in the tournament ("M" 20-40). Watch your position. Fold dominated crap from EP in early stages of the tournament. Don't raise suited connectors in EP or MP when the M is in the yellow zone since you'll be OOP with bad implied odds and you'll just end up losing your cb too often. Don't call raises with small pairs for "set value" if you only have effective stacks of 10 or less times the preflop raise because you don't have good implied odds to do it - fold (usually) or push (if you're in the red zone).

And, DON'T get passive when you're short. Look for chances to bet or raise all-in with what is either the best hand or a coin flip in a pot with 2:1 or better pot odds so you can double or triple up if you hit. That way you have 2 ways to win. One if they fold. Two if your hand holds up.

[zalw619]

seems like you already know what you are doing, but i would do this get good position on the good players who can read u, as they will be the ones who will giving you the most trouble, against the other players you know how to play against, trap the crazy guy, value bet the calling stations, Your position against the two good players as you want to act behind them on most hands.