|
|
#23
08-21-2007, 11:55 AM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: general question 1 c betting
[ QUOTE ]
Seems to me, though, that isn't #3 the best board on which to check the flop, esp. against a tighter opponent? [/ QUOTE ] Yep. Checking the flop in example 3 against an opponent who pounces on weakness is fine. Leading the flop with plans to CR AI on the turn is the teh sexiest though. 
|
|
#25
08-21-2007, 12:52 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: general question 1 c betting
[ QUOTE ]
what I dont get it 4 2.. we re in position so what do u mean lead the flop and cr AI on the turn? [/ QUOTE ] OOPs, my bad. That's my standard OOP line. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] In position, a free card is not likely to help villain, but villain might call two bets or even bet out the turn with a smaller PP. You have to think about how to extract the most value from villain's most likely range. Some villains will call down 3 streets with any J, obviously betting the flop is correct, but a guy with 99 or 66 might call turn and river bets if the flop checks through.
|
|
#26
08-21-2007, 01:19 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: general question 1 c betting
Maybe this isn't the right way to think about it Snitch, but to me it's like this. A lot of the players that I've been running into are of the 30/5/3 variety who are aggressive enough to take shots at pots, but fold a lot postflop. In those cases, our overpair to the board, going off your KK example, is usually in really good shape. However, that flop bet won't get called a lot of the time if Villain has air or some pocket pair that is now like 3rd pair or something. If we check behind on the flop, we can use our position to ensure that two bets go in postflop (which is what we do a lot of the time anyways) on the turn and river and we're not really put in an uncomfortable spot such as if we're check/raised on a dry flop opening up the possibility of 3 or 4 bets going in (if we're deep enough for that many). So, if Villain wants to try to push us out, we can collect at least one bet that we wouldn't've gotten if we c-bet. In most cases, I don't think giving that free card is a mistake since the size of the bet we can collect is worth something, plus we're not in the situation to get sucked out on that much. If the board is dry, most of the time Villain has between 0 and 4 immediate outs, so he won't get there that often. If your opponent still wouldn't call a turn bet with only one pair and will bluff on the turn about 0% of the time, then checking behind is a mistake, but there are a lot of people who like to fire off random bluffs, at least at NL25.
|
|
#27
08-23-2007, 09:39 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: general question 1 c betting
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that I check KK/QQ on A-high flops a decent amount of the time, and even moreso in 3-bet pots.
I read every single post in this thread, and I see a lot of extremely limit-oriented thinking. I don't mean this as an insult, as I used to think this way as well. Lately, I've been c-betting a lot less, and I've found that it works really well for me. I think El Diablo said in his well, in response to the question "what do you think of continuation bets", his answer was "people do it too much". In limit, 3-way pots are c-bets like 100% of the time. In NL, there are lots of flops which a c-bet won't take it down enough of the time to make it profitable and neither will a double barrel. Also, I keep seeing statements like "giving a free card is terrible" or "we lose value from hands like middle pair which might call us". I remember hearing someone mention that in limit, we protect our hand, whereas in NL, we protect our stack. This applies to situations like A-high flops with KK/QQ. I'm not checking behind because I want my opponent to catch a pair and then call me down. I'm checking behind to keep the pot small, get to showdown cheaply, and also give my opponent an opportunity to bluff. As for c-betting, whether I decide to c-bet is a function of 3 things (there are other things too, but these are 3 of the big things I think about): 1) Am I trying to get value out of my hand? (When I actually flop something) 2) Is that flop likely to have hit my opponent's hand? 3) Can I represent something? In the situation where I've missed, I weigh #2 more than I weigh #3. For example, in a 3-way pot on a J98 two tone board, I will not c-bet there. Sure, there are a ton of hands I can represent, but [censored] that. I'm so likely to get called if I single/double-barrel that it's -EV to even try to pick up the pot. On the other hand, if the flop is A72r, I'll usually c-bet to try to represent an ace, since that's a very likely holding of mine. Here are my thoughts on A-high flops while holding KK/QQ: In general, if it's an HU pot, I like to c-bet a lot more. Occasionally I will check these hands, and usually moreso if I'm in position. I feel that if I do c-bet and I'm called, I'm over with the hand. I used to c-bet, check the turn, and then call a river bet as a standard, and I just find that you run into some crappy ace so much of the time. But if I check, I've now increased the range that my opponent might try to bluff me with (flush draws, straight draws, pair, occasionally air). I also check behind with TPNK some of the time as well. Like if I raise A3s, flop is A72r. If I c-bet, I'm likely to only get action if I'm crushed, but if I check, first thing is that it changes my range to not only be KK/QQ, but it allows a hand like 88 to turn itself into a bluff. In 3-bet pots, I used to c-bet way too much of the time. But there are some flops which hit your opponent's range way too much of the time for a c-bet to be profitable. These situations are very opponent dependent, though. Some opponent's call 3-bets very light, whereas others only do it with a decent hand. Against the 1st type, I'm much more likely to c-bet, whereas if my opponent has a tight calling range, the flop is AKx, and I'm holding 87s, I'll just check/fold a lot of the time. When you move up to midstakes, there are a lot of players who play back at light 3-bets by shoving the flop with any pair/any draw/occasionally air. Certain flops like 876 two tone are perfect flops for those players to shove on you. In these situations, I will sometimes c-bet my AK, sometimes check/fold and let them have it. I wanted to discuss KK/QQ on an A-high flop in a 3-bet pot. I think these situations are tricky, and sometimes people might get too much into the mentality of "OMG what can I do to win this pot?" The truth is that sometimes you can't. You can only do your best to maximize your EV and sometimes it will be minimizing losses. Example: 2/4 game, 100 BB stacks, Hero is 22/18 CO raises to 14, Hero (BB) 3-bets to 50 with KK/QQ, CO calls. Flop is A95r. I've been checking this spot a lot more than I used to, but here is some of the thinking I go through when I try to decide on the best course of action. If the villain is very aggressive to the point of being stupid, or the villain is very straight-forward and passive, I personally think a check is best. There are some players who will turn a hand like TT into a bluff because they want to try to push you off your obvious KK. (I've put an example below, kind of brag, but it's just for fun. Keep in mind that hand was extremely read based and should not be made into a standard line.) For a straight-forward player, it's pretty easy to check/call a bet, check/fold the turn. As a balance, and especially against aggro players, I will occasionally check AK in that spot and AQ even moreso as well. This lets you get value out of a mid-pair that might have just folded the flop or suited connectors that completely missed. In the above situation, if the opponent is an aggro thinking TAG, especially one that's better than I am, I'm screwed. It's one of those situations that no matter what I do, I'm getting [censored]. In this case, I can't really tell you much other than to use your reads and past history to determine the best course of action. Also, I'm more likely to check KK than QQ, and I'm more likely to c-bet QQ for the specific reason that KK > QQ. As the pairs go down, JJ, TT, 99, I just prefer to turn them into a bluff and represent the A. It's because of the situations where you have KK and the opponent has QQ or JJ. Many opponents will check those behind as well, and if you can get a read that that is what they have, you can even stick in a nice value bet on the river. Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter) SB: $523.00 BB: $682.85 UTG: $430.00 MP: $372.50 Hero (CO): $730.20 BTN: $1,316.60 Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 Players) 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $14.00</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $36.00</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $110.00</font>, BTN calls $74.00 Flop: ($226) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players) Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $116.00</font>, Hero calls $116.00 Turn: ($458) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players) Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $972.00</font>, Hero calls all-in for $504.20 Uncalled bet of $467.80 returned to BTN River: ($1466.40) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In) Pot Size: $1,466.40 ($3 Rake) BTN had J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and LOST (-$730.20) Hero had K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (two pair, Kings and Fours) and WON (+$733.20)
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
