Dealer/Floor can't/won't enforce "Verbal is Binding".

MTDog-7 · #1 08-22-2007, 06:33 PM

Let me set this up so everyone is on the same page. Here in Montana no live Poker Pot can be over $300 no matter the stakes. I'm playing a 1-4 game with single $2 blind, 3 raises unless heads up then unlimited raises until pot cap of $300.

villain is a young guy back from Vegas who hit the CRAPS game for $30K. First night back he buys in for $2800 in $1 chips now most players buy in for $40-$100 so not only had the players out chipped he had 85% of the rooms $1 chips in front of him.
This night he only had about $300 in front of him and is playing his typical max raise 90% of hands pre-flop, and raising with little or nothing. He has called several players all-in raises when heads up and paid them off when he lost. So there I am one off the button and I get pocket Aces, Villain max raise every one folds to the player on my right who re-raises which put him all in. I re-raise, Villain raises back. I turn to dealer who is the Card Room manager and say "If I understand it correctly since we are heads up the raises are unlimited to the pot cap?" The dealer said thats correct. I turn to our Villain and say in that case I am willing to make an All In raise. The Villain says "I'll call any bet you make!" I say All IN and push my remaining $68 dealer said I need $68 from you (Villain). He goes what? He's trying the buy the pot I'm not calling! The whole table erupts! I ask did he not say "I will call any bet you make?" The Villain Claimed he did not understand my bet! After some heated debate the ruling is......Since it's not a No-limit game only a $4 call can be enforced he throws in his $4 and folds his hand. He whines about me who is out chipped by over $200 trying to buy the pot and he would not call an all-bet with K6o. Villain then buys $800 more in chips so he won't be pushed out of pots by people trying to
"buy" the pot.
thoughts and comments??? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Photoc · #2 08-22-2007, 06:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]

villain is a young guy back from Vegas

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thing you mentioned his race! Wtf seriously.

[ QUOTE ]
I turn to dealer who is the Card Room manager and say "If I understand it correctly since we are heads up the raises are unlimited to the pot cap?" The dealer said thats correct. I turn to our Villain and say in that case I am willing to make an All In raise. The Villain says "I'll call any bet you make!" I say All IN and push my remaining $68 dealer said I need $68 from you (Villain). He goes what? He's trying the buy the pot I'm not calling! The whole table erupts! I ask did he not say "I will call any bet you make?" The Villain Claimed he did not understand my bet! After some heated debate the ruling is......Since it's not a No-limit game only a $4 call can be enforced he throws in his $4 and folds his hand. He whines about me who is out chipped by over $200 trying to buy the pot and he would not call an all-bet with K6o. Villain then buys $800 more in chips so he won't be pushed out of pots by people trying to
"buy" the pot.
thoughts and comments??? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

This is called table talk. It's not right, that's for sure. Floor should give a warning but you aren't supposed to have information of upcoming actions before you make yours. You don't get to decide what you want to do after they act. He didn't make an action out of turn. What if he said on the turn: "if you go all in on the river, I'm calling" to keep you from betting? He's not going to be bound to a call.

Player needs to get a warning from the floor and if it happens again, i'd probably hold him to it or ask him to leave the room.

Poshua · #3 08-22-2007, 06:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

villain is a young guy back from Vegas

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thing you mentioned his race! Wtf seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP didn't mention villain's race. Said he was BACK from Vegas (i.e. just returned).

MTDog-7 · #4 08-22-2007, 06:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

villain is a young guy back from Vegas

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thing you mentioned his race! Wtf seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP didn't mention villain's race. Said he was BACK from Vegas (i.e. just returned).

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess YOUNG is now a Race???

Rottersod · #5 08-22-2007, 06:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I turn to our Villain and say in that case I am willing to make an All In raise. The Villain says "I'll call any bet you make!" I say All IN and push my remaining $68

[/ QUOTE ].

Next time don't believe everything another player tells you. There was nothing binding until you actually made the bet and then he said he calls.

GreedIsGood · #6 08-22-2007, 06:55 PM

First, was this even a legal bet? Unlimited raises doesn't usually mean that spead-limit suddenly becomes no-limit. It means you can keep making raises beyond the typical cap (in this case of three).

Second, if you ask a player behind you how they'll react to a given play by you, they're under no obligation to tell the truth.

As described, I don't think he was even obligated to throw in the $4. With the way you say this guy was playing, you should have just kept your mouth shut and kept making $4 raises until you were all in.

Rottersod · #7 08-22-2007, 06:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

villain is a young guy back from Vegas

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thing you mentioned his race! Wtf seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is odd because I also thought I saw "young black guy" and had to re-read it. I wonder if it's one of those structures that create some kind of false recognition. I'm not sure what it's called but there are lots of funny examples online.

MTDog-7 · #8 08-22-2007, 07:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is called table talk. It's not right, that's for sure. Floor should give a warning but you aren't supposed to have information of upcoming actions before you make yours. You don't get to decide what you want to do after they act. He didn't make an action out of turn. What if he said on the turn: "if you go all in on the river, I'm calling" to keep you from betting? He's not going to be bound to a call.

Player needs to get a warning from the floor and if it happens again, i'd probably hold him to it or ask him to leave the room.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree how many times have people Act out of turn and the play stands. The dealer said because it was $4 game that was the max she could enforce. It was not because of table talk. The guy wouldn't let go the buying the pot thing and caught grief from the other players. Several of them told him if he was smart (he's not) he would be quiet and let it go. After about a half hour of this I left because I needed to go home to the family. I wish I could of stay because he was tilting big time.

MiltonFriedman · #9 08-22-2007, 07:05 PM

The ruling was correct. You could only bet $4. He could only be forced to call your maximum bet.

You tried to hustle him all-in in a limit game.

A bet and a raise are two different things, you can only BET $4.

The NUMBER of raises may be unlimited, but no one said the amount was unlimited for a given action.

Your trash move was tossed out like the angle shooting garbage it was.

MTDog-7 · #10 08-22-2007, 07:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
First, was this even a legal bet? Unlimited raises doesn't usually mean that spead-limit suddenly becomes no-limit. It means you can keep making raises beyond the typical cap (in this case of three).

Second, if you ask a player behind you how they'll react to a given play by you, they're under no obligation to tell the truth.

As described, I don't think he was even obligated to throw in the $4. With the way you say this guy was playing, you should have just kept your mouth shut and kept making $4 raises until you were all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup, yup......the all in is done by agreeing players to "speed things up" so you don't have to go through 10-20 raises to get there. A friend suggested just telling the dealer MAX ACTION and leaving up to them. Live and learn, I now know the Villain is a scum bag.