Do you REALLY not have a read?

[voyamatarte]

I've been sort of a lurker for the past few months, but I have been reading alot of posts. Obviously, not replying like I should, but I have noticed a trend.

A large group of people, mainly newer or less experienced players like myself, are saying that they have no read, or that they just sat down. I suspect that most of the time, this either isin't true, and you don't admit that you have no read on someone, or you aren't putting the minimal effort you need to during the first couple of orbits to get SOME idea of what is going on.

At our limits, we have quite a large advantage against the AVERAGE player, because they are quite bad, and we are armed with tools like these boards and SSHE, but this is not enough to make you a decidedly winning player. We have to play poker, and part of it is understanding what to do in certain situations, but without a read, we are blind.

So, be MORE ATTENTIVE. Try to get a note on every orbit on at least one player. If it gets you to correctly value bet just ONE TIME on the turn against a calling station, or fold pre-flop to guy who has folded his last 35 hands PF, then you are increasing your winrate, which is ultimatly the goal of all of us here.

[Bona]

NH. PT is both a godsend and a crutch. PT is only part of the answer. IMO , a real read is more difficult but more valuable. The value lies in getting a good read and playing accordingly with confidence. Adjusting the read of course when opportunity presents.

This is one of many areas that could help me if I could learn to get it right. There are several experienced posters here who often refer to reads and base their recommendations on them. I won't name them because I wouldn't care to leave anyone out, but it gives them credibility with me and I follow their posts carefully, trying to learn from them.

[jstill]

This has come up before, there was a long thread in SSSH by gvasa u could read...

basically the reason this trend occurs is becuz most players find hands where they have no read are the hardest in their mind so they are the ones they post most frequently becuz they want to check in and see what people think is standard vs an unknown or someone we just have preflop stats on after 100 or so hands and not much else.

Typically against a known lag or tag we will know what to do so those hands get posted less, and if we have watched someone play a lot and know how they play we know what is best with all that information. Obviously in a partial information game the less information the harder to derive a correct decision (essentially what amounts to making a high variance decision almost in the dark) so thats what people like to find out about.

Another factor is most of the fish out there come on a site play for a week a month or less and are never seen again, so we need info on how to exploit those players using our sterotypes of other unknowns or players we've come across with similar stats (since we havent seen them before). Unfortunately players with the same stats often have very different tendencies in different spots so its guess work and conditional probability to some degree.

[Smurph64]

When I started posting on this board I made the exact same comments you did here. I couldn't believe even without pokertracker people weren't taking notes, watching the table before sitting down, multitabling and paying attention to the action even when they weren't in the hand.

Pokertracker stats aside even watching the comments players make it seemed to me obvious that some players could be round house categoried.

I still believe that table selection, killer poker type instinct and table control have a huge impact on your ability to win consistently.

I think its a mistake as a newbie to not concentrate on the task and the one table you are playing for a good chunk of hands.

I didn't understand why people didn't want to discuss those aspects of poker which according to some very respected hs players is an important skillset to work on and important habits to develop.

Essentially in the micro limits however this is a forum about ABC math textbook poker and a year later I finally respect that.

I still think we should have posts and discussions about poker outside the single hand analysis of play but its a lot more difficult to discuss.

When I started there used to be donkfest tables that some of the guys would slum on and it was there that I found discussion about table control, seat selection and play variation vs opponents took place.

Not sure if they do that anymore but even watching it was a great learning tool.

Bottom line now I multitable. Now I play micro limit poker and play checkers at the same time. Now I understand why guys can post without reads and still learn from the action without a read.

That being said I still believe table selection and table control can greatly vary your results so its something I continually work on separately, but I find the relevance of posting a play outside of ABC poker in this forum to be counter to the culture they are trying to instill in us here.

Generally when I did that I got shot down huge.

I would like to have an ongoing read only hand thread going much like the nc's but after trying 3 or 4 times... with the MLET tourney etc. it became pretty difficult to expect the forum to support it.

The best suggestion I have if you want to learn about those skillsets,(reads, table selection criteria etc. is to ask someone to mentor you and share information with them on sessions you played when which you did take notes, did think about things other than your own cards)

Doing this, finding someone with more experience than yourself who is willing to look at your play is perhaps the next step to take to this step after participating in hand review sessions which happen here once every two weeks.

There if you get a type of reviewer they will comment on other players than yourself and that also helps understand those elements of play.

[Ulkis]

AussieBattler recently had a very good post on table selection, definitive post i'd say. Just do a search and you should find it easily.

[Xhad]

While it is good to get reads ASAP once you're playing, you should be able to win at a table without datamining (or be able to very quickly determine that the table isn't worth your time). Also there are a lot of times when you know almost nothing about someone's play except that you have a couple really strong signs that they're terrible. If you're good enough at the game you play not being willing to play without reads is just leaving money on the table.

[train.]

[ QUOTE ]
So, be MORE ATTENTIVE. Try to get a note on every orbit on at least one player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not much of a multitasker and hence very seldom multitable. Even then I find it hard to concentrate on everyone at the table, even in 6max. Thus, I try to pick out the most aggro/tricky player at the table early and get a good read/notes on him.

It's not hard to take the occasional note on others if I notice something out of line but I focus most of my energy on just one player to start and build from there.

[OziBattler]

[ QUOTE ]
AussieBattler recently had a very good post on table selection, definitive post i'd say. Just do a search and you should find it easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

thx. the post is in the current stickied digest.

now I will admit that I use PAHUD alot and I miss reads. I do get them, just not as often as I'd like which happens when one multitables. Im also often lazy, drinkin beers and just cant be bothered watching the action at tables where I dont have a decision. hehe. What I have gotten really good at is intepreting stats for what they are. When looking at stats displayed on my hud I think its often good to compare them to my stats and go from their. An example is that when I started out playing using a form of the SSHE starting hand chart my PFR was in the 7-8% and now its in the 10-11% range...I thus can get a pretty good idea of what default raising standards are of a non-loosie who has these sort of stats are (and BTW, I prefer to play the 7-8% guy to the 10-11% guy). What I always try to do is if I see a move by a player that does NOT match what I'd expect from his stats then I take a note.

I play mostly at stars these days because I like their software and they have the most games running of any site at the times I play....I therefore have a half decent database on players at my limit. I ALWAYS some sort of table and seat selection when I play a session and it really helps. I usually have stats on 2-3 players at each table and I have decent reads on the regulars...only a few are tricky the rest are abc or just plain predictable...mo monies for me.

Like OP I do think we get alot of posts, mostly for new platyer, with no reads. Its kind of a double whammy because a good player can get by better with less reads cos they know the standard lines and know the adjustments....newer players often are still learning the ABC plays (whcih I fully support BTW).

anyway, Im rambling....ppl, yep, post reads please and encourage others to do so.

ozi out