(NL5) 200BB deep Hero flops middle set OOP in a raised family pot

[BotOnTilt]

Thank you Cry Me A River for your brutal honesty. Indeed you are right, it was very bad to slow play this hand.

With monsters I don't slow play them for them not to call, but rather hoping that they will improve so that I can stack them on the river. I guess it comes from noticing that nut-flushes are some of my most profitable hands, and if I make the flush on the turn and check it I will extract a lot more on the river than if I bet the turn - unless a fourth flush card comes. I used to fold pockets, only recently have I discovered that sets are such well concealed monsters so I think I have wrongly adapted my style from slow playing nut flushes to sets.

Generally its probably a leak though, since you are very right in that people call extremely lightly.

I'm eager to learn since I think you are right also in that I slow play too many hands, can I ask if its generally speaking okay to slow play a set if there are no draws and I'm pretty sure that pfr will bet if I check it to him on the flop? Or is it better to donk bet, check raise or call & bet turn?

Cry Me A River, I have to add that I've been thinking a lot of your advice and it makes a lot of sense (had to do some stuff for an hour before I could finish this post so I had some time to think). I really value these forums and it always amazes me how good players are willing to take the time and effort to help beginners. ty sirs [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Cry Me A River]

Hey, no problem Bot, we've pretty much all worked our way up from the bottom. We all know what it's like. I worked my way up from freerolls. I started out real money playing small stake SNG's not ring, but I know the grind...

IMHO, your default play should ALWAYS be to play monsters FAST. I think this is true of virtually every level. That is, you need a very good, very specific reason to slowplay. Your first thought should be to get as much money in there as quickly as possible. And the only time you would switch to slowplay is if one or more key factors come into play.

It's almost like a hail-mary play in football. Yes, when they work they make all the highlight reels. But they only get thrown in very specific situations. They're nobody's first option on standard plays.

Having a generally aggro image, particularly postflop can really work for you because it disguises your hands. If you're always aggro on flops regardless of whether you're stealing with bottom pair or jamming a monster your opponents have a very hard time putting you on a hand and you will get paid off regularly. Particularly against loose and passive players. If you need to slow down later in a hand you can always do so. But for example, if you play the hand in the OP the same on the flop regardless of whether you have the flopped set or a monster draw your opponents have a much harder time making correct decisions against you.

If you're usually passive or slowplay monsters and then suddenly come alive on turns and/or rivers this can be a huge tell. Like players who raise PF and then check with position on an A or K high flop but then suddenly push hard on the turn. Not too difficult to figure out what's going on there...

First and foremost, never, ever slowplay against calling stations! Doesn't matter what the hand, what the board is, don't do it! Against stations it's too hard to make up for missed bets on later streets because you cannot trick them into showing aggression. You need to bet, bet, bet and bet some more. If this is the rare hand they don't have jack and actually find the fold button, oh well. Get them next time.

The factors that make slowplaying a good idea would be things like:

Villain is weak-tight, particularly if villain likes to bet all streets but will fold to resistance.

Villain likes to call river shoves/overbets lightly to catch bluffers. (In which case you can try slowplaying him a bit and shove river).

Villain likes to overbet/shove rivers as bluffs or with decent but not great hands if play has been passive throughout the hand.

Board is unlikely to have hit villain (ie: 266 rainbow) and you put villains on missed overcards.

Again, most of these are VERY specific situations that require VERY specific reads on villains. In general situations, particularly against bad players, do not slowplay!

Situations where slowplaying is STRONGLY counter-indicated:

Against calling stations.

In raised multiway pots. (Very likely someone has a decent second best hand)

In raised pots against villains with low PFR's (ie: if villain has a PFR of 1.5 and you flop a set, DO NOT slowplay! Chances are very good he has AA/KK/QQ and will stack off)

On draw heavy boards. Protect your hand AND get the money in BEFORE draws come in and kill your action against hands which were not drawing. The worst thing that can happen to you is to flop a set vs an overpair, you slowplay it, the flush comes on the turn and the overpair gets scared away from stacking off.

The worse the villains are in a hand the less viable an option slowplay becomes. You do not need to get all fancy against terrible players. Just flop a good hand and get them to pay you off. Repeat. Yes, it's not flashy, it's not super-exciting. But that's not what you're here for!

Keep sight of your objectives! Why are you playing the micros? You're playing the micros because you're a thinking, responsible player who wants to learn to play a good, solid game and not just dump a few hundred dollars into a site and go donk it right up at $100NL.

Save the tricky, fancy play for when you meet up with opponents that NEED to be played that way. You're just cheating yourself out of money every time you wind up at showdown and you didn't get stacks all-in against an opponent who would have happily played for stacks but you ran out of streets to bet after slowplaying. Or even worse, every time you give him odds to draw out on you and take your pots away.

[Cry Me A River]

[ QUOTE ]
can I ask if its generally speaking okay to slow play a set if there are no draws and I'm pretty sure that pfr will bet if I check it to him on the flop? Or is it better to donk bet, check raise or call & bet turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're playing a level where donk bets are common (ie: micros) I think donk betting is generally better because it shows far less strength and you'd rather have villain call you down all three streets than fold to your checkraise.

Checkraises are better for spots where you want some fold equity (big draws) to help your profitability because checkraising is generally seen as being very strong (though some donks seems to always see them as bluffs and play back at them with anything. So be aware of the ones who will do this and exploit it). I realize fold equity is something of an oxymoron at the micros but that's where your reads come in. If villain is a complete donkey or has a passive streak (he's not likely to raise your donk bet, or if he's likely to fold turn if you bet again) then checkraising becomes a better option because it gets more money in the pot.

Whatever you do, don't exclusively play one way or the other or people will eventually start to realize you only checkraise draws (or whatever) (yeah, who's paying attention at the micros? - but we're learning to play, good, solid poker, remember? And avoiding these kinds of betting tells is an important factor).

Against complete tards who will stack off regardless just pick either/or it doesn't really matter. Against the other players who have some clue, mix it up a little and keep them guessing. Avoid FPS but at the same time, these are the guys you don't want to be too predictable against.

[BotOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, no problem Bot, we've pretty much all worked our way up from the bottom. We all know what it's like. I worked my way up from freerolls. I started out real money playing small stake SNG's not ring, but I know the grind...


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I also started with free-rolls last December [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Used my $3 prize to play some SNG's and grew it up to $140. Then in Feb-March I came into a point where I felt that the $10 SnG's might need more skill than I had at the time and playing exclusively SNG's made me bored with 'em. Now I took the Party instant bankroll and try to learn cash games [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I quickly read through your post and I'm impressed that you wrote so many pieces of advice for me. Its way late in my timezone, so I will re-read it tomorrow when I have a clear mind but just wanted to say thanks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[shat4brains]

yeah slowplaying is horrible here, your hand is quite vunerable

[BotOnTilt]

I just wanted to bump this old thread to say that I took a lot from CMAR's posts. Betting aggressively with made hands seems to work very well.

1. villains call very lightly - I get lots of value from hands that wouldn't bet

2. by c-betting and stealing a few pots my aggression is still disguised somewhat, if I'd slow play my monsters I think I'd have a hard time stealing from thinking villains and they wouldn't pay me off when I have the goods.

3. people try to be tricky so aggressive play actually does a pretty good job of hiding my monster (i.e. no one expects me to bet pot with quads)

4. Its no longer my mistake when opponents suck out, they made a larger error in calling against all odds.

5. Its harder to play against aggressive villains


That said I think there would be more spots in my play where a more aggressive way would win more in the long run. I think I don't bet my draws enough - although my gut says that at NL5 its not needed as I get paid off even if don't bet them but then again I could win the pot right there if I bet.

Also this hand has left me thinking whether or not I should have bet the flop. I think many of the people here would make a large bet there, or even push. I just checked since I figured that if I pushed the only one calling would be the one that has me beat. If I make a large bet and some calls and the turn is a blank I will have another tough decision. Also thought that if someone has the flush they might let me draw to a FH cheaply.. I'd like to hear your opinions on it. As played it turned out pretty well though, but I think if it wasn't for CMAR's advice in this thread I might not had the guts to just bet the quads like that and might have lost some value on the river. Although looking back a bet instead of a CR might have been better..

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP1 ($5)
MP2 ($1.87)
CO ($9.44)
Button ($2.61)
SB ($5.70)
Hero ($5)
UTG ($2.84)
UTG+1 ($2.09)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $0.08</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.08, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls $0.08, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $0.04.

Flop: ($0.34) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($0.34) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $0.04</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.04, Button calls $0.04, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.25</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Button calls $0.21.

River: ($0.92) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3</font>, Button calls $2.61 (All-In).

Final Pot: $6.92

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has 8c 8h (four of a kind, eights).
Button has 7c Ad (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins $6.93. </font>

[seki]

By not betting the flop, you're letting any diamond get a free card. Bet pot. You mentioned in the OP about open shoving the flop, but that is definitely a crazy overbet. Sometimes at these levels that is a useful play, but I wouldn't do that here as you shove out all the two-pairs and draws without getting another penny of value. I wouldn't recommend crazy overbets (to abuse the stakes) if you ever plan to move up, either. You want to develop a game you are comfortable with that will also play correctly the next level up, so that when you do jump up, you're not pre-tilted by having to play a whole new style.

On the turn, I'd definitely lead out since a c/r might fold weak flushes and the two-pair type hands. It's also harder to extract value from those same classes of hands when a 4th diamond comes.

River is fine.

[BotOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
You want to develop a game you are comfortable with that will also play correctly the next level up, so that when you do jump up, you're not pre-tilted by having to play a whole new style.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been thinking about this, and wondering if it really makes sense to develop a solid game for the next level while playing lower. The thing is I only have experience from NL5 and a bit from NL10, but already from these two levels I see some changes in villains - like in NL5 its very common to call raises with ace-rag, while in NL10 I've seen a lot more pocket pairs and SSC's in the hands that called, and they don't stack off quite as easily. Also in NL10 more villains seem to know how to price out draws, while in NL5 they don't.

I'd like to consider myself a thinking player (although in some sessions I don't seem to pay any attention [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]) and I like to review the hands I've played and making notes on villains that seem to stick in their patterns. So I'm wondering if it makes more sense to try to optimize my play for my current level, and then when I find out more about the next level I'll again re-evaluate everything and go through the hands of the most successful players in my database to see if I have missed something? The skill level between NL5 &amp; NL10 can't be too extreme, can it?

That said I do think I should always add more aggression and positional awareness as I think its good at all levels.

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
like in NL5 its very common to call raises with ace-rag

[/ QUOTE ]People do this at NL100, FWIW. Not EVERYONE, but there are plenty of people who do.

As long as you are observing players and figuring out how to exploit them, you'll do fine at the next level. You'll find new players that are more difficult to exploit with less holes, but that's part of the fun of the game. As you move up, you'll be adding new tools to your arsenal to combat the new challenges.

[seki]

My point is that your core game that you play against unknowns should not be terribly stake dependent. The player turnover at these stakes is so high, its hard to get enough hands on a player to have reliable reads, so a majority of the time, you should be treating them as unknowns. If you get reads which tell you to play differently against a player, obviously use them. Just don't assume a massive difference in what the stats/behavior mean from one level to the next.