What should I do with KK here? - Page 2

Gen Sterling · #11 08-17-2007, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( $33 )
Hero bets $20.00, MP3 raises to $91.00,

[/ QUOTE ]

First, this guy is described as loose and semi-aggressive, so I can see him having flopped the straight with 69 and 9J suited or not.

Second, the overbet may be designed to protect his straight against the flush draw.

I'm inclined to fold out of position.

PantsOnFire · #12 08-17-2007, 02:33 PM

My gut instinct is to fold this.

The hands that you want to see are QQ, JJ or AT. QQ and JJ are not hands that most players limp with and then call a raise. And AT really can't be that happy here except AdTd which is in pretty good shape.

The problem is that you hand is very unlikely to improve. Whatever villain did this with, unless a stone cold bluff, is very likely to improve if not be best right now like a set.

Another problem is that CO is still in the hand so MP3's raise is even stronger than if you were heads up. A set might normally smooth call here but that board is not friendly to a set so I would also raise big here with a set.

You're shown strength twice in a row and now you are at a wall. It doesn't look good at all. You're out $30 at this point and my feeling is if you continue you will be out $200.

evagaba · #13 08-17-2007, 04:57 PM

OP is a beginner and plays 200NL?

RapidEvolution · #14 08-17-2007, 09:38 PM

I'd fold here, for a number of reasons.

This raise could easily be a flopped set or straight that's guarding against the flush draw, or at BEST a semi-bluff.

You're only hoping to see something like QQ, JJ, or 99, or air...I don't think these are as likely. With just this info (for me, anyways) it's bad enough but...

CO is still left to act. A plan to call the bet and then push a blank on the turn goes to shreads if CO pushes. It's to murky for my taste.

Greg Miller · #15 08-19-2007, 01:08 AM

If you've run into the first person I've ever seen limp/call AA, then so be it. I'd tend to ignore that possibility.

The fact that he called your raise preflop somewhat reduces the odds of a made straight, but he's so loose preflop that I can't be sure. Does he call a lot of raises preflop? If not, it's probably not the made straight.

If I had to guess, I'd say he flopped a set or an OESFD and is trying to get the money in, in case his hand goes way down in value on the turn. If he's loose enough when calling raises preflop, he might even have top pair with an OESFD. Yikes.

I can't really see much of anything you're a favorite against except for a bluff. If he makes a lot of big bluffs, you might call. Otherwise, dump it.

Newman30 · #16 08-21-2007, 12:59 PM

It’s a damn difficult hand in my opinion.

Obviously you have different oppnions. Also the experienced players like pzhon, Albert Moulton and PantsOnfire. You experienced guys have three completely different approaches on what to do. Pzhon recommends push, Albert Moulton: call, push and PantsOnfire: fold. It’s all good advice, even though that it’s completely different. That’s just underlining that the hand is not obvious.

My hand range is pretty close to Albert, although a little different on the pairs. I actually think villain would raise TT-AA preflop (I only have 100 hands on villain (I forgot to tell).

64,14% (77-99, T9, J9, 97s, 87s, Ad*d, 6d5d)
35,86% (kdks)

To this kind of range we should not push, we have to win 41% with the given pot odds as calculated by pzhon.

Because of the nastiness of the table, I would be inclined to fold.

Unfortunately I didn’t ;-) . Here is what actually happened:
Everest Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00/$2.00 (HH Converter by Kreatief)

BB (200.00) (Hero)
MP2 (75.42)
MP3 (397.00)
CO (38.00)
Button (30.30)
SB (244.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
1 folds, MP3 calls $2.00, CO calls $2.00, 2 folds, Hero raises to $10.00, MP3 calls $8.00, CO calls $8.00,

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( $33 )
Hero bets $20.00, MP3 raises to $91.00, 1 folds, Hero raises All-In $190.00, MP3 raises All-In $387.00,

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( $524 )

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ( $524 )

Results:
Hero has K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
MP3 has 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Outcome: MP3 wins $408.00

Even though I would fold there is a problem in this approach. If villain is not passive (which he is not), people will tend to walk all over you after you folded something like this (they will treat you like a doormat as on of my poker friends expresses it). That’s why a call is not so bad either, as suggested by Albert.

lucky_mf · #17 08-21-2007, 01:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do here? (Villian is loose 40% VPIP, semi-agressive)

Everest Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00/$2.00 (HH Converter by Kreatief)

BB (200.00) (Hero)
MP2 (75.42)
MP3 (397.00)
CO (38.00)
Button (30.30)
SB (244.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
1 folds, MP3 calls $2.00, CO calls $2.00, 2 folds, Hero raises to $10.00, MP3 calls $8.00, CO calls $8.00,

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( $33 )
Hero bets $20.00, MP3 raises to $91.00,

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an easy fold against a typical villain of the type you described. He has a str8, two pair, or trips here a lot and when he is semi-bluffing your not even that far ahead or maybe even behind (if he has a str8 and flush draw). The only thing you are way in front of is a bluff. If you just call your going to be sitting there on the turn with $110 left looking at a $190 pot - getting nearly 3-1 to call a turn push. Folding on the turn getting this price would be bad IMO.

Against most villains I would advocate checking the flop. Any thinking villain is going to be able to guess you didn't raise 5bb with (suited) connectors from the bb. Thus, the flop bet gives aggressive players the opportunity to put pressure on you (pressure your hand can't take) with a raise. Furthermore, the board is very coordinated with the type of hand that lots of villains would check-call a pre-flop raise from middle position with. By checking you avoid the prospect of a raise and have the opportunity to get to a showdown cheaper (which is what you want with KK on a board like this).

Lucky