Whats the best way to protect your 2 pair postflop & prevent a suckout

[HardGrind]

I realize that i allowed my opponent to suck out on me by not going all in post flop. In all honesty, being that the flop was rainbow I knew I had the lead. In previous hands the table was playing a lil aggressive so thought it was best to play passive. I really didnt think that player6 caught the board at all based upon his previous play(very loose). So when he made the $2 bet I thought he was just trying to push us out.

How could I have detected this before the missile exploded? Thanks.



Full Tilt Poker - Pot Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 8 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $8.55
BB: $12.75
UTG: $8.05
Hero (UTG+1): $1.85
MP1: $10.00
MP2: $2.30
CO: $8.30
BTN: $2.80

MP1 posts $0.10
Preflop: Hero is dealt 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8 Players)
UTG calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, MP1 checks, 3 folds, SB calls $0.05, BB checks

Flop: ($0.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">BB bets $0.25</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls $0.25, <font color="red">MP1 raises to $0.50</font>, SB folds, BB calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25

Turn: ($2) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="red">MP1 bets $2.00</font>, BB calls $2.00, Hero calls all-in for $1.25

River: ($7.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 All-In)
<font color="red">BB bets $7.25</font>, MP1 folds
Uncalled bet of $7.25 returned to BB

Pot Size: $7.25 ($0.70 Rake)

BB had K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Sevens) and LOST (-$2.60)
Hero had 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (two pair, Queens and Sevens) and LOST (-$1.85)

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
I realize that i allowed my opponent to suck out on me by not going all in post flop. In all honesty, being that the flop was rainbow I knew I had the lead.

[/ QUOTE ]
You probably had the lead, but two pair isn't the nuts.

You can't fully protect your made hands. However, you would do a better job by betting and raising instead of calling, and by not paying off after the turn ruins your hand.

I think your play was quite poor on several decisions.

First, you limped with Q4s. This is not a strong hand. It is a weak hand when you are trying to beat several other players. You might want to play only about 10-20% of your hands in early and middle position, even in a loose game. Q4s might not be in the top 50%. If you are routinely playing hands like this, you are leaking a lot of money. Many of your opponents play any suited hand, but 90%+ of poker players lose. Do something different if you want to win.

When you have a short stack, as you did with less than 20 times the big blind, you should be selective, or aggressive, and usually both. Youd did neither. You played bad cards passively. You need to get hit by the deck to win that way.

Second, on the flop, you didn't have that much money left. You could have raised at either opportunity, and gotten called by weaker hands, or pushed out draws.

Third, overcalling on the turn was poor. The turn card counterfeits your hand. That means you are now only playing one card. You are behind anyone with top pair who can play a kicker, e.g., KQ would have KQQ77 which beats your QQ774. Anyone with a 7 (or less likely, KK or AA) is also ahead of you. So, what can you beat? A complete bluff, a straight draw, and someone with a 4 or a pocket pair below a queen. That's not very much. The turn ruined your hand. Don't throw your money away just because your hand used to be strong.

While you might think the MP player could have anything, you didn't call, you overcalled. Once the BB calls, you have an easy fold. The BB didn't call with a bluff; he has something, and with very high probability it is better than your ruined hand. You might be able to overcall with some slightly weaker draws because you get better pot odds. However, you need a much, much stronger made hand to overcall than you need to call. Much of poker is about understanding which hands are strong, and how much strength you need for a play. You might want to focus on that more instead of just trying to read your opponents.

[KurtSF]

I know your question is about protecting two pair hands, but I'm going to give you the best possible advice for this hand.

Fold preflop.

For 99.9% of all players you will have much more EV folding this preflop than trying to outplay your opponents postflop.

As played, you should fold on the turn also, but trust me, the correct answer is fold preflop.

[Poker Clif]

[ QUOTE ]
I know your question is about protecting two pair hands, but I'm going to give you the best possible advice for this hand.

Fold preflop.

For 99.9% of all players you will have much more EV folding this preflop than trying to outplay your opponents postflop.

As played, you should fold on the turn also, but trust me, the correct answer is fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely with the above.

Small Stakes Hold 'em, by Miller/Sklansky/Malmuth, recommends the following starting hand list for small stakes, loose games with an average of at least six players to the flop:

<u>From early position, if there is no raise</u>
Any pocket pair
AKs-A2s, AK-AT
KQs-K9s, KQ-KJ
QJs-Q9s
JTs-J9s
T9S-98S

Note that for a game with bad players, and a bunch of callers giving you odds to play speculative hands, Q4s isn't good enough to make the list. You would have to have a specific reason to even open with that hand, such as a great read, a tell, a game theory bluff, or your name is Gus Hansen.

[HardGrind]

I appreciate the insight Clif, KurtSF &amp; pzhon. Come to think of it, I dont even know why I was playing such maginal hands to begin with! Especially at Mircos...?!?!....I gotta reinforce into my brain that I need to KEEP IT SIMPLE &amp; play A-B-C POKER.

I was also playing a sitngo at the same time this hand took place. That could have been a reason why my range was a lil wider than normal preflop.

Thanks again guys, for all your input &amp; allowing me to see things from a different angle. I know that it will improve my game.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know your question is about protecting two pair hands, but I'm going to give you the best possible advice for this hand.

Fold preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]
Small Stakes Hold 'em, by Miller/Sklansky/Malmuth, recommends the following starting hand list for small stakes, loose games with an average of at least six players to the flop:

<u>From early position, if there is no raise</u>
Any pocket pair
AKs-A2s, AK-AT
KQs-K9s, KQ-KJ
QJs-Q9s
JTs-J9s
T9S-98S


[/ QUOTE ]
It should be noted that SSHE is a limit book, and the OP is playing NL. In NL, you would pitch ATo, KJo, K9s, and possibly others, while considering adding more suited connectors like T8s and 76s. Also, 22 is included for convenience, but it is much weaker than 55 since it makes fewer straights, and is more easily counterfeited. You may want to pitch 22 and 33 in both limit and NL.

Anyway, if I count correctly, the SSHE list contains 242 hands out of 1326, about 18%. Many of these are playable only because you are assuming that your opponents are so loose, playing 50% of their hands or more. With more normal opponents, you should be tighter in early position.

[Teddie]

Buy in for the full amount and fold pre-flop, as played raise the flop too a $1 or just shove.

[Dumb Fish x]

Looks to me like you were not aggressive enough at any time. I would have folded pre-flop but as it is you called and then played weakly I think. Loose &amp; passive is not good poker. You need to bet for many reasons: getting information about your opponent's hand, protecting your own hand, for value, and also because you might just win the pot immediately.

Thats just my novice 2c.

[ChrisV]

Raise allin on the flop, not to drive out the original bettor (who will probably call) but to price out random draws behind you. 0.25 is so cheap that even a random gutshot + backdoor or something is priced in. Also, reraise allin after the raise behind you.

Fold the turn, that was a nightmare card and you beat literally nothing now. You don't have odds to draw to your two fours (or a queen or seven for the split).

Edit: Oh, and fold pf. When I saw Q4s I just skipped pf because I assumed you got a free play in one of the blinds. It's a shocking hand.

[Poker Clif]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know your question is about protecting two pair hands, but I'm going to give you the best possible advice for this hand.

Fold preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]
Small Stakes Hold 'em, by Miller/Sklansky/Malmuth, recommends the following starting hand list for small stakes, loose games with an average of at least six players to the flop:

<u>From early position, if there is no raise</u>
Any pocket pair
AKs-A2s, AK-AT
KQs-K9s, KQ-KJ
QJs-Q9s
JTs-J9s
T9S-98S


[/ QUOTE ]
It should be noted that SSHE is a limit book, and the OP is playing NL. In NL, you would pitch ATo, KJo, K9s, and possibly others, while considering adding more suited connectors like T8s and 76s. Also, 22 is included for convenience, but it is much weaker than 55 since it makes fewer straights, and is more easily counterfeited. You may want to pitch 22 and 33 in both limit and NL.

Anyway, if I count correctly, the SSHE list contains 242 hands out of 1326, about 18%. Many of these are playable only because you are assuming that your opponents are so loose, playing 50% of their hands or more. With more normal opponents, you should be tighter in early position.

[/ QUOTE ]

A few questions regarding your response, and the differences between limit and no limit.

1. Your point about playing more suited connectors in NL makes sense. With no betting limits, a speculative hand is more likely to get paid off.

However, wouldn't this also be true when playing 22 to try to flop a set? Why should the list of pocket pairs be shortened, while the list of suited connectors is expanded?

2. Is there a similar hand list for NL? I realize that SSHE is a limit book, but I'm not aware or any NL lists specifically tailored to loose small-stakes games.

3. No question, but a comment. When I bought SSHE, I did not know that it was a limit book. In fact, it's the second limit book that I bought, not knowing what it was.

When I saw that it was a small stakes book, and given that NLHE is a more popular game, I assumed that the book either covered NL, or both. When I got the book I had never played limit, and at first I was baffled by what "capping the betting" meant.

It seems to me a book that is only going to cover one or the other should say so prominently. How hard is it to fit "NL" or "limit" somewhere on the front or back?